Boer War battle field finds

[Thomas Symmonds]

Hello all.

These were handed to me today with a request to find out what I can. So I post them with the same request, "Any information will be greatly appreciated".

The shell is 190 mm x 70 -75 mm diameter (It has rusted through in places). The lead shot are on average 13mm diameter.

There are some markings on the case, not very clear on the photo I'm afraid. I think they are

0 - 75 - ?

(what looks like) R1

F (3) or (5) or (8) ?

(3) or (2) L

6 . 2.16

U

Sorry all very unclear

And then some bullets (30 mm x 7 mm) and a bullet shell (55 mm x 13 mm)...

Thanks gentlemen.

Regards

Thomas

[Mervyn Mitton]

Hi - Thomas. Your shell is the shrapnel 12lb. or, 15 lb. Cases fitted both guns. To find a complets shell - even in this condition is quite rare. However, I must caution you - has the firing pin been discharged ? The explosive was Lyddite - extremely unstable and volatile - and great care has to be taken with it. In WW1 we lost several warships from self destruction. Later, it became cordite which was much safer. The man who 'tamed' Lyddite was NOBEL who found a way to infuse it into clay - Dynamight - or, is it Dynamite (sounds like an Australian spread !!)

I wouldn't think a great value in this condition. About five years ago a Zulu Kraal in Pietermaritzburg had an explosion which killed over 50 peeople. Turned out a 50lb. shell had been buried many years ago - they had lit over it - not knowing it was there - and as they say, the rest is history.

Someone else will have to advise you on the rifle bullets - not my interest - they all look the same.

(Pages from 'The Hall Handbook of the Anglo Boer War - by Darrell Hall )

[Mervyn Mitton]

[peter monahan]

Assuming these are Boer War finds, which the shrapnel shell makes pretty much a certainty, then the bullets will be either Lee Enfield (if British) or some variant of Mauser (if Boer), though the latter is not a sure thing, as obviously Boer commandos (militia) used whatever rifles were around the farm when they left for war.

There should be markings on the cartridge casing as well, round the base in a circle, which might tell you at least nationality if legible.

Fascinating find. Do you know where they were picked up?

Peter

Edited June 18, 2009 by peter monahan

[Thomas Symmonds]

Hello Gentlemen,

thank you for your input Mervyn and Peter.

Closer inspection of the base of the cartridge casing seems to me to show, going clockwise from top, "R" , "Broad arrow (?)", "L", "11" or "II" , and a "C". Any takers on an ID?

Mervyn, from the two diagrams I would be inclined to go with the 15 pounder, Mark VI. The general shape seems to fit, and I have found what appears to be the "steel disk" which fits over the "tin cup" which I assume used to hold the expolsives. I say "used to" because I am still here even after dropping the thing upon reading your post! Unfortunately the base is too corroded to read.

The shell, shrapnell, bullets and cartridge case were found on a farm called Protea Heights, just outside Stellenbosch, about 40 years ago. They were picked up by a man named Fred Stephens. It is with his passing that these items have found their way to me so unfortunarely the trail runs cold there. Maybe a little bit of help as to if any battles were fought there abouts, or troops perhaps stationed there ??

Thanks for the information so far.

regards

Thomas

[Mervyn Mitton]

Thomas - there were no great battles in the Cape - mostly it was storage and preparations for the Relief of Kimberley. Probably a depot and they 'lost' it. I wonder if you could go over the farm with a metal detector ? I've got a good one - but, you'll have to do the digging - they are of course illegal on any designated historical site.

[Guest Rick Research]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno...

having read with great interst the above...

does going prospecting for Lyddite seem like a GOOD idea?

:cheeky:

[Mervyn Mitton]

That's why Thomas is doing the digging !!! I'm old - not stupid.....

[Thomas Symmonds]

Thanks for your concern gentlemen, but I have my shell and shrapnell. If you would like your own, like Mervyn says, he has a metal detector ...

I too is not stoopid ?

[Guest Darrell]

That's why Thomas is doing the digging !!! I'm old - not stupid.....

LOL

[Brett Hendey]

Knowing of my interest in the multiple VC action on Wagon Hill during the Boer War, a friend recently gave me a board of relics collected from this battlefield. The action took place on 6 January 1900 during the Siege of Ladysmith and was the only occasion when the Boers made a frontal assault on British positions.

The relics are:

A spur found near the 18th Hussars camp site.

A helmet chain found at the 18th Hussars camp site.

The above items probably postdate the Wagon Hill battle.

.303 Enfield cartridges (British) and a spent 7mm Mauser cartridge case (Boer) from Wagon Point, where the Boers nearly overwhelmed the British. It was during this action that two of the five Wagon Hill VC's were won - Lieutenant R Digby-Jones (Royal Engineers) and Trooper H Albrecht (Imperial Light Horse).

On the botton right is a damaged .303 Enfield cartridge from Wagon Point.

Brett

PS Mervyn will recognise this board. It was mounted in his shop.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Brett Hendey

[Mervyn Mitton]

Brett - did we really part with this lovely board ??? I actually can't remember it - but a good set.

[Guest Darrell]

This is fascinating stuff. I couldn't imagine having famous battle field sites in your back yard, or within decent driving distance.

The closest I have to historical things are a few Indian Arrow Heads or Fossilized dinosaur bones .......

[Brett Hendey]

There are many well known and even more less well known battlefields in KwaZulu-Natal (formerly Natal and Zululand) dating from 1838 (Voortrekker settlement), 1842 (first British/Dutch confrontation), 1879 (Zulu War), 1880/1 (1st Boer War), 1899/1902 (2nd Boer War) and 1906 (Natal Rebellion). Almost unknown are the battlefields where Zulu factions fought each other while the Zulu kingdom was being established.

Sadly, only some of these battlefields and their monuments are well preserved. Vandalism is common and it is not safe to visit some of them.

Regards

Brett

[sabrigade]

Hi Brett,

Obviously because I grew up in Gauteng, there are also many Boer War sites in the Province as well.

In 2002, I did a pilgrimage at the places where actions/battles took place during the 1922 miner's strike.

This is a very different "battlefield" tour but proved to be very interesting.

There are many unknown monuments, headstones and sights for this ignored and relatively obscure but bloody period in South African social and military history.

The well-known Ellis Park rugby stadium, for example, was the site of a major skirmish between the Imperial Light Horse and a Striker Commando.

The Cottlesloe School on Brixton Ridge still bears the shrapnel marks left by courtesy of the Transvaal Horse Artillery who were supporting a bayonet charge by the Transvaal Scottish before the striker stronghold was captured in Fordburg (my grandfather was part of this charge).

Regards,

Will

[Guest Darrell]

...... Vandalism is common and it is not safe to visit some of them.

Regards

Brett

Why is that? Since I've never been there ...

[Brett Hendey]

Darrell

Some of the vandalism of monuments and gravestones is of the mindless kind perpetrated by lower forms of humanity. For example, the cemetery at Chieveley near Colenso, where Lt Freddie Roberts VC is buried, once had a visitors book kept in a small 'house' mounted on a pole. This was gradually dismantled until only the pole was left. It may not help to have a guard at such sites. There is an instance reported where the guard used the filled pages of the visitors book as toilet paper. He was careful to ensure that there were still pristine pages for new visitors to sign.

Sometimes the vandalism has a purpose, such as the excavation of graves at Isandlwana by local inhabitants in order to get battlefield relics (badges etc) to sell to visiting tourists. I believe that this has been done to orders give by militaria collectors. Also, some of the graves and monuments are excavated in the belief that there is treasure buried beneath them.

There is even vandalism that might have been prompted by need. There is a collection of graves and monuments moved for protection from Colenso to the nearby farm of Clouston. A well-equipped restroom was built on site. When I last visited Clouston, the restroom had been largely demolished and its contents (toilet bowls, washbasins etc) and building materials had been removed for use elsewhere. (This is also the fate of farmhouses vacated by their owners for one or other reason.)

There is a program, still ongoing I think, whereby people (and money) from the United Kingdom are restoring damaged battlefield sites in South Africa (e.g. the Chieveley cemetery). It remains to be seen if their good works will survive.

KwaZulu-Natal battlefields are simply not as well respected and protected as those elsewhere in the world.

Regards

Brett

PS I forgot to mention that South Africa probably has one of the highest crime rates in the world, so criminals abound, even at battlefield sites.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Brett Hendey

[Thomas Symmonds]

Hello all.

I just recently asked a question of Mervyn regarding "The Trooping of the Colours". I had a vague idea that it was some sort of military parade and the name had rung a bell somewhere, but I was not sure. He was a little taken aback that I was not familiar with the ceremony celerbrating the Queen's birthday.

My train of thought here is that most vandals of memorials, military or any other area, are perhaps not aware of the historical importance of the site, but lack the personal pride too that comes with knowledge of some link to the persons being commemorated. I am not saying that I would trash or vandalise any Trooping of the Colour item, but being aware of what it is makes it that much more interesting, and therefore the chances of me looking after it increases. Knowledge plays such a huge role.

I understand the immediate needs of people to put food on their families plates, and I have no easy answer, but the mere fact that there are forums such as this one, means there are people with a passion, and people with passion make great teachers! Preservation of the things that one holds dear starts with telling, and informing, others about them.

(I want to keep going but my children need to get to a puppet show )

regards

Thomas

Edited June 27, 2009 by Thomas Symmonds

[Mervyn Mitton]

Brett - your comments are so true regarding the vandalism. Some of it could just be prejudice - i.e. Afrikaans , British, or, Zulu children listening to parents and then doing damage - but when you bring bull dozers to a cemetary to see what you can find !!

The famous story - and I mention no names, or, clues to identity, - was the overseas dealer who provided the night guard at Isandlawana with a metal detector and told him where to dig. I believe in this case there was a prosecution - however, the last time I visited Isandlawana , guess who was on the gate ???

[Les]

Obviously because I grew up in Gauteng, there are also many Boer War sites in the Province as well.

Some fighting on a small scale took place in the Karoo around Colesburg and the lower Zeekoe Valley. I stayed in a house in the area built by a one-time partner of Cecil Rhodes prior to the war. When the Britis and Cape forces started moving north towards the Orange, a British unit was camped in the area where the house is. One bright morning, a British officer went out on the porch to urinate and was plugged in the head by a Boer located on a small kopje about 200 meters away.

Unlike the region around Natal and NE of "PE", up north towards and across the Orange River the former civilian camps, remains of former railway blockhouses, and so on, have their own archaeological materials of a far different sort. Those items tell a very grim side of the war.

Several farmer in the area (at least before the laws were changed) kept standard or sporterized Mark I and Mark III Enfield rifles for use around the farm. 303 brass and spent rifle bullets could be found in the fields, not left over from the Boer War, but from farmers hunting or thinning out Springbok herds and other small game animals.

Les

[Thomas Symmonds]

Good morning gentlemen.

I realise that this thread has gone off on a wee tangent. I hope to bring it back with a later post or two, but for now let me indulge this line a little bit longer.

Will, I came across this article this morning in our local Sunday paper. It is good to see that there are still people out there who are trying to preserve our heritage, and making a meaningful difference while doing it!

http://www.thetimes.co.za/Sport/Article.aspx?id=1024753

Regards

Thomas

[sabrigade]

Hi Thomas,

A very interesting article, thank you!

Maybe it is time to post the 1922 strike as a topic?

I have an MC group to a later commanding officer of the ILH who was present at this battle.

Regards,

Will

Edited June 28, 2009 by sabrigade