Unidentified Sabre

[steph]

Hi can anyone help identify this old sabre found in the attic of an old farmhouse in Wales.

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Hi can anyone help identify this old sabre found in the attic of an old farmhouse in Wales.

This pattern was in use in the first half of the 19th century, and was a sidearms for customs or the coast guard (or some such service--my memory is fuzzy without a book in front of me!), and later in the 19th century it was used by other ranks of the Army Hospital Corps. A similar sword was also used by buglers in the Indian Army of the Raj. Are there any markings on the sword or scabbard?

Jonathan

[steph]

Hi Jonathan,

Many thanks for your help I have had a good look at the sword and scabbard there aren't any markings on them, any I deas on value?

This pattern was in use in the first half of the 19th century, and was a sidearms for customs or the coast guard (or some such service--my memory is fuzzy without a book in front of me!), and later in the 19th century it was used by other ranks of the Army Hospital Corps. A similar sword was also used by buglers in the Indian Army of the Raj. Are there any markings on the sword or scabbard?

Jonathan

[/quote

[peter monahan]

This pattern was in use in the first half of the 19th century.... A similar sword was also used by buglers in the Indian Army of the Raj. Are there any markings on the sword or scabbard?

Jonathan

Jonathon

I was intrigued by your reference to the Indian Army. I used to know a bit about them but I can't recall ever seeing a 'two bar hilt' on an Indian-worn sabre. One possible exception is a not very clear picture of a trooper of the Bengal Horse Artillery in an 1852 water colour (artist unknown. It seemed to me that most swords & sabres were either a copy of what the British Army was wearing at the time or native tulwars. Can you point me to a reference or illustration, please? Thanks

Peter

[peter monahan]

Hi can anyone help identify this old sabre found in the attic of an old farmhouse in Wales.

Steph

Is the hand grip wooden on this piece? I just noticed that it looks as if it might be, which I think is unusual for British swords. Or is it just very old black leather and missing the wire wrap?

Peter

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Steph

Is the hand grip wooden on this piece? I just noticed that it looks as if it might be, which I think is unusual for British swords. Or is it just very old black leather and missing the wire wrap?

Peter

The grip should be made of iron.

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Jonathon

I was intrigued by your reference to the Indian Army. I used to know a bit about them but I can't recall ever seeing a 'two bar hilt' on an Indian-worn sabre. One possible exception is a not very clear picture of a trooper of the Bengal Horse Artillery in an 1852 water colour (artist unknown. It seemed to me that most swords & sabres were either a copy of what the British Army was wearing at the time or native tulwars. Can you point me to a reference or illustration, please? Thanks

Peter

Peter,

See the photo of the seated bugler on page 10 of the Osprey title Indian Infantry Regiments 1860-1914:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0fYAZL_HrMQC&pg=PA3&dq=indian+army+1860-1914&ei=oep6SsfyG5mSywSh2fDEDA&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=indian%20army%201860-1914&f=false

I am not sure how similar the blades are, but the hilts are the same.

Jonathan

[steph]

Hi Peter,

The hand grip is wood.

Steph

Steph

Is the hand grip wooden on this piece? I just noticed that it looks as if it might be, which I think is unusual for British swords. Or is it just very old black leather and missing the wire wrap?

Peter

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Hi Peter,

The hand grip is wood.

Steph

That is surprising. These swords generally have iron grips.

And sorry, but I do not have any idea as to the value. If you want to contact a UK dealer for a valuation I can give you contact information via private message.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Jonathan Hopkins

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Here is an example of the cast iron grip. Its paint has probably been polished away at some point (photo from oldswords.com):

Edited August 6, 2009 by Jonathan Hopkins

[steph]

Hi Jonathan,

That looks very much like it, though i'm not sure what type of metal the hilt is made of it will have to have a clean; any idea on the origin?

Here is an example of the cast iron grip. Its paint has probably been polished away at some point (photo from oldswords.com):

[Jonathan Hopkins]

I think that it is quite likely brass or a related alloy of some sort. I do not suggest polishing the sword, but if it is dirty or if there is active rust I would address those problems. There is an excellent article on sword conservation here:

http://swordforum.com/articles/ams/conservation.php

As to the origin, I thought I had mentioned it but I guess I dod not. It is a British sword.

Jonathan

[steph]

I think that it is quite likely brass or a related alloy of some sort. I do not suggest polishing the sword, but if it is dirty or if there is active rust I would address those problems. There is an excellent article on sword conservation here:

http://swordforum.co...onservation.php

As to the origin, I thought I had mentioned it but I guess I dod not. It is a British sword.

Jonathan

[steph]

Many thanks for your time and effort. I would be greatful if you could send me details of a dealer to get a valuation.

Regards

Steph

[Thomas Symmonds]

And there we go Steph. A good deal better than I think you would have got languishing in the previous sub-forum. Jonathan knows his swords. Please let us know how you get along further. All experiences and details would help the next person.

Jonathan, would you have a "name", model etc, for this sword?

regards

Thomas

[steph]

Had a look on the oldswords.com website, there appears to be two versions of the sabre one with a brass hilt, which was the N.C.O's version and one with a steel hilt which was the privates version. There are no metal brackets attatched to the scabbard which matches the one on the website, which is covered in leather with leather straps. It was issued to the Army Hospital Corps 1857-1880.

Steph

[steph]

What can I say! Awsome site.

Had a look on the oldswords.com website, there appears to be two versions of the sabre one with a brass hilt, which was the N.C.O's version and one with a steel hilt which was the privates version. There are no metal brackets attatched to the scabbard which matches the one on the website, which is covered in leather with leather straps. It was issued to the Army Hospital Corps 1857-1880.

Steph

[Jonathan Hopkins]

The original Coast Guards sword was not an official pattern, to my knowledge. According to Robson (Swords of the British Army), these were adopted for other ranks of the Army Hospital Corps around 1861. Going back to Steph's original photos, her sword has a much more dramatic curve than the AHC swords usually exhibit. That could mean that hers is a variant, a Coast Guards sword (which had a more curved blade), or that it is the Indian pattern I referred to earlier

Jonathan

P.S. Steph, I will send you a PM. :)

Edited August 7, 2009 by Jonathan Hopkins

[steph]

Hi Thomas,

Have been up to local library and found, John Wilkinson Latham, British military Swords From 1800 to Present Day. Page 40, describes this sword as being issued to Medical Staff-sergents

prior to 1865. After this they were required to carry a sword bayonet. It was refered to as a "drummers sword".

And there we go Steph. A good deal better than I think you would have got languishing in the previous sub-forum. Jonathan knows his swords. Please let us know how you get along further. All experiences and details would help the next person.

Jonathan, would you have a "name", model etc, for this sword?

regards

Thomas

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Hi Thomas,

Have been up to local library and found, John Wilkinson Latham, British military Swords From 1800 to Present Day. Page 40, describes this sword as being issued to Medical Staff-sergents

prior to 1865. After this they were required to carry a sword bayonet. It was referred to as a "drummers sword".

Steph,

Well done going to the library. That is a step most people skip, unfortunately. Books really are a key ingredient to understanding and further knowledge in this field. If your library has a copy of Swords of the British Army by Brian Robson, that is teh standard text on the subject. The Wilkinson-Latham book has some unique photos and illustrations, but the text is quite outdated.

Jonathan

[steph]

Unfortunatly no Brian Robson, I will have a scout about in some other libraries in the area.

Steph,

Well done going to the library. That is a step most people skip, unfortunately. Books really are a key ingredient to understanding and further knowledge in this field. If your library has a copy of Swords of the British Army by Brian Robson, that is teh standard text on the subject. The Wilkinson-Latham book has some unique photos and illustrations, but the text is quite outdated.

Jonathan

[Jonathan Hopkins]

Here is a topic from another forum that you may find informative:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=83957&highlight=hospital