1911 Rangliste

[Luke]

Hi - I was hoping someone out there had a copy of (ideally) a 1911 (or around there) ranklist - looking specifically for an officer list from Oldenburg Dragoon Regt #19.

Thanks in advance,

Luke

[Naxos]

Closest I have is from 1909 - hope that helps

[Luke]

That's fantastic - thanks for the help - unfortunately I'm looking for a Graf with an "E" - thinking he may have been a junior officer perhaps a bit later (1911/1912)

Luke

Closest I have is from 1909 - hope that helps

[Guest Rick Research]

"Graf with an 'E'" on WHAT?

It is always best to simply state/show whatever it is you've GOT...

saves vast amounts of wasted and misdirected time.

Have seen more "but I thought it looked like...." errors than hot lunches...

not enough hours in the day...

:catjava:

[Luke]

Hi Rick,

Sorry it was my error - the cypher is a seven pointed Freiherr Crown (not Graf) with initials CE beneath. Visor belonging to this regiment.

[Mike Dwyer]

Of course, as Rick likes to point out, the Prussian rank lists don't put first names or initials (unless two in the same regiment with same last name), but on the 1914 Rangliste there is a Rittmeister Freiherr von Eltz-Rübenach in the 19th Dragoons. Maybe he's your CE.

[Luke]

Hi Mike. I think you located our man

Looked around on the internet a bit while there seems to be a few Eltz-Rübenach, I found a German site that made reference to

Eltz-Rübenach, Clemens Reichsfreiherr v. und zu, Rittmeister ausser Diensten ... that would certainly bring the "C" into the equation.

Thanks again guys for the help! Much appreciated.

Luke

[HeikoGrusdat]

.........are you shure it is the right man...??? he is not listed in the regiment for 1911 too....

[Luke]

I`m quite sure, 1911 was a `circa`date

[Guest Rick Research]

Wrong title, wrong date, incomplete name clues... which is why it is ALWAYS best to fully SHOW AND TELL right up front...

saves a phenomenal amount of wasted time and wasted effort.

DR 18 and DR 19 both had the same cap colors, I think (Chip?)... but assuming that Baron CE is correct-- and like Saint Thomas-- I prefer to SEE, no further "corroboration" being valid without visual confirmation,

As it happens I have the genealogy of the Barons von Eltz-Rübenach as well as his promotions/transfers from Rank Lists (joined DR 19 between October 1913 and May 1914) and can post that with some visual confirmation of the initials and unit of the cap.

APPEARS without such confirmation to be Max CLEMENS Mariano Maria Joseph Hubert Freiherr v. E-R (1878-1940), younger brother of Hitler's first Minister of Post and Transportation, who was purged in 1937 as a Catholic activist anti-Nazi.

Clemens was recalled for WW2 and died as a Major zV.

[Luke]

Wrong title, wrong date, incomplete name clues... which is why it is ALWAYS best to fully SHOW AND TELL right up front...

saves a phenomenal amount of wasted time and wasted effort.

DR 18 and DR 19 both had the same cap colors, I think (Chip?)... but assuming that Baron CE is correct-- and like Saint Thomas-- I prefer to SEE, no further "corroboration" being valid without visual confirmation,

As it happens I have the genealogy of the Barons von Eltz-Rübenach as well as his promotions/transfers from Rank Lists (joined DR 19 between October 1913 and May 1914) and can post that with some visual confirmation of the initials and unit of the cap.

APPEARS without such confirmation to be Max CLEMENS Mariano Maria Joseph Hubert Freiherr v. E-R (1878-1940), younger brother of Hitler's first Minister of Post and Transportation, who was purged in 1937 as a Catholic activist anti-Nazi.

Clemens was recalled for WW2 and died as a Major zV.

[Naxos]

Perhaps this might help?

[Guest Rick Research]

Yup-- I'm not good on uniforms, but looks like both were the same, and the Oldenburg cockade would limit it to those two regiments.

Since cavalry regiments kept their colored caps during the war and didn't switch over to Feldgrau, not sure how that might help distinguish a pre-war from a wartime cap.That could complicate the suspects list, since the family used the same names (many many names) over and over and it comes down to Rufnamen to sort them out.

Anybody have a Stammliste for DR 19?

[Luke]

Hey guys. Just trying to do this reply via blackberry...first attempt didn't go so well. DR19 is the only possibility unless cockades were switched on the visor. That was the only Oldenburg Cav Regt. I have pics but they are property of the dealer I bought it from I will try to post pics when I have the visor in hand next week. The visor itself can be seen on derrittmeister.com under just in from Germany. Don't think its been removed yet. Has good shots of crown and initials. Thanks Rick love to get more info on this guy!

Yup-- I'm not good on uniforms, but looks like both were the same, and the Oldenburg cockade would limit it to those two regiments.

Since cavalry regiments kept their colored caps during the war and didn't switch over to Feldgrau, not sure how that might help distinguish a pre-war from a wartime cap.That could complicate the suspects list, since the family used the same names (many many names) over and over and it comes down to Rufnamen to sort them out.

Anybody have a Stammliste for DR 19?

[Luke]

http://www.derrittmeister.com/productpages/33154.htm

Cheers,

Luke

[HeikoGrusdat]

The visor itself can be seen on derrittmeister.com under just in from Germany

:speechless1:

[Luke]

Meaning........? problem?

[Luke]

Everyone has a dealer opinion. I posted the link simply because I'm trying to get info on the owner and pics were requested. Not looking to discuss dealer or piece per se.

[HeikoGrusdat]

of course... everybody has a dealer opinion....and sometimes some people over the world share this opinion...some don`t - no problem.

You want infos of the owner.... but you don`t want to discuss the piece you have or will get???? Interesting but a bit questionable...

You are asking for the knowledge of people - of course you must allow them to discuss the piece - AND - the source of the piece is part of the discussion... if you don`t like discussions on your piece you should not ask questions on it on a discussion forum... ;)

[Luke]

No I wasn't looking to discuss the piece. Not sure how that's questionable. I'm comfortable enough with the piece right now. Once its in hand if I have issues definitely I'd want to bounce it off others.

This particular forum is the research forum yes? I was simply trying to research the cypher.

Anyway your input is appeciated. Once the piece is in hand, like any piece it'll get a good once over. From the pics though I can't see anything glaringly wrong.

Perhaps once the piece arrives ill post in the appropriate forum if I have doubts etc.

Best regards. Luke

of course... everybody has a dealer opinion....and sometimes some people over the world share this opinion...some don`t - no problem.

You want infos of the owner.... but you don`t want to discuss the piece you have or will get???? Interesting but a bit questionable...

You are asking for the knowledge of people - of course you must allow them to discuss the piece - AND - the source of the piece is part of the discussion... if you don`t like discussions on your piece you should not ask questions on it on a discussion forum...

[Guest Rick Research]

Righto-- DR 19 Oldenburg, DR 18 Mecklenburg-- I've been typing their WW1 award rolls for so long I see Mecklenburg everywhere.

Luckily from the link I don't see the price. His are generally ... non-rational. Mainly because he has NO idea what he is doing.

Luckily the initials are block printed-- some years ago he had a purported colonial pith helmet with a standard your-grandma's-wedding-silver-monogram (something like a letter "M" as I recall) that he had fantasized into a TWO initials combination for an Admiral (who NEVER served outside German home waters) for $11,000. He has never been shy about putting prices on things he has not got one clue about.

Hence our alarm.

Cap looks good. I would say that since you have bought the hat, you BOTH own the scans and you may do what you like with images of your property.

© From

This genealogical publishing house is a jewel for German aristocrats' research. They are still selling orginal over-run OLD editions of these fantastic books-- I got this one only a few years ago from their online website (have lost address but those of you clever at google search can find it). Prompt shipment-- deluightful folks to deal with. :beer:

[Guest Rick Research]

© the incomparable Starke Verlag volume above-- here is "C E" as child number 7 on page 103

with his famous big brother Paul on page 102.

C E's 3rd and final daughter is on page 104.

[Guest Rick Research]

and working back, parents on page 100 under the family arms. C E the result of dad's 2nd marriage

Commissioned in 1901 and vorpatentiert for one year backwards seniority (which I think meant he had an Obersekunds rather than an Abitur) in Dragoner Regiment 4

Leutnant 30.01.00 P4p

Oberleutnant 18.10.09 U4u

remained in DR 4 until after the October 1913 Rank List supplement--between the May 1913 edition and that, he received the Catholic Papal-affiliated version of the Order of Malta.

Transferred to DR 19 between the October 1913 Supplement and the May 1914 Rank List, probably when promoted

Rittmeister 18.10.13 S2s

He appears on none of the WW1 award rolls we have transcribed so far, and the Honor Rank List 1914-1918 shows no staff posting for him during the war.

Charakterisiert Major aD circa 1920 after demobilization.

Recalled as Major zV for WW2 and had not served long enough for the usual one promotion bump up for such retreads when he died at home in 1940.

Most likely had both Iron Crosses and both Friedrich August Crosses and would have had the Prussian XXV Years Service Cross for his double-counted war years on discharge in 1920.

Would be interesting to find out if he managed to get to Finland in 1918 as some in his regiment did.

I find no mention of transfers in Militärwochenblätter for 1915 or the first half of 1916, from the monumental name indices Glenn is labouring on. Cavalry officers often ended up in VERY odd places, and he could just as well have spent the entire war in his fancy uniform in a reserve infantry regiment or some such unit. Need to get lucky with Stammlisten for that kind of detail.

[Guest Rick Research]

same hat (different cockade ) worn by MECKLENBURG Dragoon Rgt 18 Major Gebhardt von der Schulenburg-Wolfsburg on his 44th birthday, 2 November 1916:

He hadn't even picked up his EK1 by then yet. :speechless1:

[Luke]

Thanks so much Rick and all. Very much appreciated