avadski Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Guys, I have this cross for a couple of months and I believe it's a fake. I would welcome any opinions of bavarian collectors here. Thank you very much guys in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avadski Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avadski Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avadski Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avadski Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schießplatzmeister Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Guys, I have this cross for a couple of months and I believe it's a fake. I would welcome any opinions of bavarian collectors here. Thank you very much guys in advance. Hello Avadski: Unfortunately, I believe that you are probably correct in your estimation regarding this piece. It was most likely a genuine MVKIII with swords piece at one time. It is easy for a forger to remove the swords and use a small grinding tool, or file, to remove all traces of the hole through which the swords were pinned. In twenty (20) years of collecting, I have never seen one of these that I am comfortable with. I therefore don't have one in my collection (nor a pilot's qualification badge nor a submarine badge for that matter). I would only feel comfortable with one of these if in came with a group of items and the document (another thing that I have never seen because there were relatively few awards). Although it is not possible to be 100% certain regarding your piece without inspecting it personally, I would have to say that it is most likely an altered piece. Best regards, "SPM" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 An altered cross, for sure. It still has the matching ribbon for a cross with swords! The 3rd class was instituted in 1913, and in peace time (1913/14) there were ZERO of this class awarded on peace time ribbon. In the first two years of WW1 they were given on Beamten ribbon without swords, still only a hand full (sorry, don't have the number handy). Later, those Beamte were authorized to get swords onto their crosses, and most might have done this. I can hardly imagine there's more than a dozen of REAL ones around... and that many have one in their collection... :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I found again the thread where I had typed in the award numbers of Bavarian last issue MVKs without swords. Just some weeks ago... "I finally found closer information on MVKs 3rd modell in Orden-Militaria-Magazin #41, June 1991. On peace time ribbon, there were awarded up to August 1914: MVK 1st class with the crown: 6 MVK 1st class: 9 MVK 2nd class with the crown: 39 MVK 2nd class: 59 MVK 3rd class with the crown: 6 MVK 3rd class: none (sic!) Oddly, there were three more awarded in war time on peace time ribbon: MVK 1st class: 2 MVK 2nd class with the crown: 1 And, what I never had heard of before, Beamte did get the crosses without swords on "Kriegsverdienst" ribbon (but that was the so-called "Beamtenband"!) between August 1914 and July 26th 1915. This adds: MVK 1st class with the crown: 26 MVK 1st class: 367 MVK 2nd class with the crown: 475 MVK 2nd class: 177 MVK 3rd class with the crown: 71 MVK 3rd class: 24. With decree from 26th july 1915, those Beamte were entitled to get swords for their crosses, and we can assume most did get these, as they meant "in front of the enemy decorated". I have hardly ever seen a real MVK 3rd modell issue without swords (well, now we know why), but the article shows two crosses 2nd class - both real silver. I don't know when they did change but, well... not all at Nimmergut's opus magnum is correct. I'd rather not buy a Alpacca silvered 3rd modell 2nd class without swords. You might add swords (or rather a cross with swords, if you believe in the cross) and this is a very, very nice bar." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avadski Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Guys, many thanks for the info. Now I have at least a replica made of a period item I'm not sorry for the money I paid for this cross, I'm sorry for a good cross with swords that has been destroyed by some faker. So we only can laugh right now as I paid only 29 GBP for it. Was it worth to make this fake? A nice MVK3X goes for 25-30 GBP. Now thinking of the effort that someone did to convert this cross I can't see any profit. Thx again :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avadski Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 One more thing...I posted a question about a good book dedicated to MVKs in the library section (http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=39128&pid=362444&st=0&#entry362444). If something comes up to your minds please let me know. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schießplatzmeister Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 One more thing...I posted a question about a good book dedicated to MVKs in the library section (http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=39128&pid=362444&st=0&#entry362444). If something comes up to your minds please let me know. Thank you. Hello again: There are no good books out there currently in my opinion, but..... I have heard rumors of an excellent book on the MVO (and perhaps the MVK) which will shortly be published by an expert in Germany. So, save your money for that book when it is published. "SPM" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 There will be an ultimative book on Bavarian MVOs and MVKs, but I think it will take yet one or two years. He wants it to be perfect. In the mean time, I've heard, there will be a total roll published of all interresting MVOs and MVKs, from 1866 to the end. Ask anything about MVOs and MVKs in about two years, and you'll get the answers we have been waiting for decands now. :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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