Sweden Great medal bar of a Swedish officer who served in the British Army

[Mopsi]

Hi

Many Thanks.

You have written : 'Thord did not write what medals he had got. It was made by his nephew MjGen Arne Hallström some 10 years after Thord passed away in 1964.'

Can you please let me know if Thord-Gray'snephew (MjGen Arne Hallström) did mentined the Spanish Order of San Fernando between the Orders given to him ?

Regards

Lilo

According to Arne Hallström Thord received both Isabella Catolica and San Fernando. But he did not write wich year. Myself I thought it was in 1921 because Thord lived in Spain that year, but now I think I was wrong.

[lilo]

Another point to examine is what are the 3 ribbons Thord-Gray wears on his british WW1 uniform as shown on page 1.

Below I attached an abstract of that photo containing these 3 ribbons.

They could be all Swedish : From Left to rigth :

- Black Ribbon : Order of the North Star (Nordstjärneorden), Comm Great Cross 1962;

- Green ribbon : Order of Vasa;

- last ribbon : Stockholm Olympics medal 1912, (Silver ?).

but this doesn't match for the following reasosns :

1)

The only Order suspended from a black ribbon that match with the list of Orders received by Thord-Gray is the black ribbon of the Swedish, Order of the North Star. But being the uniform represented on page 1 that of a WW1 British officer and as you have written that Thord-Gray received the Swedish, Order of the North Star in 1962, this make my conclusion an impossible one.

2)

Moreover, there is no trace at all of the other two medal/Order I metioned between the medals and Orders of Thord-Gray hold by the Armémuseum in Stockholm (go to:http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/ownerInfo.do and type Thord-Gray name).

At this point, could be that the uniform didn't belong to THORD-GRAY ?

Before to go on we must wait that our member Claudio could confirm if the photo he posted was that worn by THORD-GRAY or not.

Edited October 8, 2009 by lilo

[Mopsi]

Yes, I have made the same observation. I think it is not Thord´s uniform. No ribbon corresponds with the medals we know he had. And when he was LtCol he had at least six ribbons as seen on a 1915 photo on page 3.

[Mopsi]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. This is all sounding more and more unlikely-- I suspect he was a completely "Self Invented Man."

What he is wearing (SIX ribbons!!!!!!) in the photo in British (cap badge, please? ) does not seem to bear any relation to what he supposedly had. Nor do the classes of the Orders bear any relation to his purportedly exalted ranks.

I think he was a fairy-tale spinner.

Surely somebody with THAT bizarrely exotic a career would have left a considerable "paper trail" than what sounds like an Ickypedia hoax?

Google up ANY actual period references, anybody? Uh, "Theodore Roosevelt Division" (WTF?)... Florida (!!! 1935) Uh, "world archery champion?" Uh... banker/archaelogist-- what, no racing car championships or solo around the world flight records? Uh... PhD 1960-- has ANYBODY actually VERIFIED any of this? And, uh, NO-- I don't mean consulting the Ickypediaa hoax. I mean CONTEMPORARY references, in REAL places?

In the British National Archieves (War Records Office) there are documents showing that the Swedish Defence Attaché on behalf of the Swedish Government requested documents stating Ivor Thord-Gray´s service in the British and South African Forces. After controlling Thord´s service records, the Swedish Government on 27th February 1934 decided to award the overdressing fairy-tale-spinner Major-General Ivor Thord-Gray the Order of the Swords (Svärdsorden).

In spring 1962 Ivor Thord-Gray was summoned to the Swedish Embassy in Washington. He was reluctant to go there because he did not know why. Upon arrival he was brought to Ambassador Gunnar Jarring, who on behalf of the Swedish Government handed over the Order of the Polar Star (Nordstjärneorden) as a reward for Thord´s scientific works.

Ivor Thord-Gray was a great soldier but also a true researcher.

He amongst other things brought the science knowledge of the narcotic herb Mamillaria Hyderi, of course already known by the local Tarahumara indians but unknown to the rest of the world.

Regarding the Theodore Roosevelt Division, ex-President Roosevelts letter with thanks for the effort made by Thord is extant and dated 25th May 1917. By then Thord had recruited some 3 500 volunteers.

Thords money is an interesting story. He was ordered to sell gold from the Russian gold reserve in Vladivostok. One receipt of 146 946 dollars dated 17th January 1920 is preserved in the Royal Library, Stockholm. But when he should transfer the money to Admiral Koltschak, the communists had already won and had also murdered the Admiral. So Thord kept the money insted of giving it to the communists. Surprised?

Compared with the real Thord, the fictional Indiana Jones seems like somewhat of a schoolboy.

[Mopsi]

Last known photo of the overdressed fairy-tale-spinner Russian and US Major-General PhD Ivor Thord-Gray. Photo in his garden July 1964, 6800 Riviera Drive, Coral Gables, Florida, USA. Thord is holding a M 1893 Spanish Mauser rifle which he captured from rebels in the Philippines 1909.

[Mopsi]

This painting shows a few things. The deathskull emblem on his arm is the badge of the 1st Siberian Assault Division. Thord joined the Division as 2/C but later succeded Col Labuntsev as GOC Div. To the left the deathskull banner of the Division handmade by two Russian Grand-dutchesses. Thord managed to take the banner with him when he left Russia. The red sash is S:t Anna 1 class. Thord considered that to be his finest award regardless of what he received later. On his civil clothes he only had the discret small button of S:t Anne on his jacket.

When Vladivostok was captured by the communists on 29th January 1920, Thord was taken prisoner by the reds. He was brought to the new commander, Colonel Krakovetsky. who was not a communist but a social revolutionary. Col Krakovetsky found out that he had fought against Thord at Usi and that Thord - unilke many white commanders - had not executed red prisoners, but treated them in a human way.

Therefore Col Krakotvetsky decided that Thord was free to sail to Japan. On 3rd February 1920 Thord left Russia onboard s/s Suwa Maru bound for Yokohama.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Mopsi

[Mopsi]

Hi Rick!

He could have been over-dressed, but many medals on this bar he really deserved to wear, since he participated most of the campaigns.

Let's try to identify this court mounted medal bar... 1st attempt... you're more than welcome to fill in the blanks!!

1. Sweden, Order of the Sword, Knight

2. Finland, Order of the White Rose of Finland, Knight's Cross 2nd class

3. Finland, Civil Guard's Iron Cross of Merit

4. British Empire, Cape of Good Hope GSM, 1880-97, 1 clasp, Bechuanaland

5. British Empire, Queen's South Africa Medal, 1899-1902 (1899), 4 clasps Wittebergen ???, Natal, Wepener ???, Cape Colony

6. British Empire, King's South Africa Medal, 1901-02 (1902), 2 clasps, South Africa 1901, South Africa 1902

7. British Empire, Zulu Rising Medal, 1906 (1907) clasp ?

8. British Empire, 1914/1914-15 Star

9. British Empire, British War Medal, 1914-20

10. British Empire, Victory Medal, 1914-18

11. France, Victory Medal, 1914-18 (could also be the Belgian Victory Medal)

12. Russia, Order of Saint Anne, 3rd class (?)

13. Russia, Order of Saint Vladimir, 3rd class (?)

14. Russia, Order of Saint Stanislaus, 3rd class (?)

15. Finland, Swedish Brigade Medal 1918

16. ???

17. ???

Good luck with the remaining medals... (just two...).

Ciao,

Claudio

Here we have them:

1. Sweden, Order of the Sword, Knight

2. Finland, Order of the White Rose of Finland, Knight's Cross 2nd class

3. Finland, Civil Guard's Iron Cross of Merit

4. British Empire, Cape of Good Hope GSM, 1880-97, 1 clasp, Bechuanaland

5. British Empire, Queen's South Africa Medal, 1899-1902 (1899), 4 clasps Wittebergen, Transvaal Wepener Cape Colony

6. British Empire, King's South Africa Medal, 1901-02 (1902), 2 clasps, South Africa 1901, South Africa 1902

7. British Empire, Zulu Rising Medal, 1906 (1907) clasp 1906

8. British Empire, 1914/1914-15 Star

9. British Empire, British War Medal, 1914-20

10. British Empire, Victory Medal, 1914-18 MID

11. France, Victory Medal, 1914-18

12. Russia, Order of Saint Anne

13. Russia, Order of Saint Vladimir

14. Russia, Order of Saint Stanislaus

15. Sweden Swedish Brigade Medal 1918 Finland

16. USA Military Order of Foreign Wars

17. USA Military Order of the World Wars

But there are three missing: Isabella Catolica, San Fernando and Konung Gustaf V:s Nya Sverigemedalj 1938 (see picture below).

[Mopsi]

There are two questions:

1) Why did Thord not wear the King Gustaf V New Sweden Medal (see post above) presented to him in 1938. I think Thord did not consider it a "real" medal because it had not a connection to war.

2) Why did Thord not wear the Spanish Isabella Catolica and San Fernando. He had those as seen on photos from the 1914-1920 period. Thord was a devoted anti-fascist. Perhaps he did not want to wear Spanish medals after thet Franco had taken over Spain in 1939?

[Peter J]

Claudio, that's a magnificent medal bar I'm curious about the classes though, shouldn't the White Rose be a Knight's Cross 1st class?

cheers

Peter

[Mopsi]

White Rose of Finland. Thord became Commander 1st class in 1935.

[lilo]

Hi again Mopsi,

1)

Regarding the British WW1 Lt. Col. Uniform on page 1, it could well be that worn by Thord-Gray but with wrongly mounted ribbons belonging to another person !

2)

Regarding the Spanish Order of San Fernando, if you go on page 2 and see the Thord-Gray's ribbon bar, there is a ribbon (red with yellow edges) that although it is NOT perfectly matching with that of San Fernando, it (the ribbon) could be suitable in case the correct one is not readably available to mount. So, it can well be that the tailor that mounted the Thord-Gary's ribbon bar used a 'similar' ribbon for that of San Fernando.

Again, can you please let me know if Thord-Gray's nephew (Mj Gen Arne Hallström) did mentioned the Spanish Order of San Fernando between the Orders given to him ?

3)

There is another medal non present in your list that Thord-Gary received and that you can see mounted either in his miniature medal bar or in his ribbon bar (both on page 2).

It is a Swedish medal that I couldn't identify for its illegible (at least to me) swedish name but I'm pretty sure it is the : 'Medalj, Föreningen för skidlöpningens främjande i Sverige'

Can You please translate what exactly this medal is for ?

You can see this particular medal at :

http://www.digitaltm...3&noInResult=25

Apparently, He worn this medal from a wrong ribbon : "Blue/Yellow/Blue" instead of "Half Blue / Half Yellow".

Moreover, regarding the 'unknown medal' that on 'post 62' (page 4) you suspected to be Chinese and that is worn as a ribbon in the picture of Thord-Gray as Colonel in Mexico 1914 (see your 'post 61' and photo with 'red arrow' below), it could well be just this Swedish medal that Thord-Gray worn from the wrong ribbon.

The wrong "Blue/Yellow/Blue" ribbon used by Thord-Gray for this medal perfectly match with the 'Grey/White/Grey' colour of the 'unknown' ribbon worn in the in the picture of Thord-Gray as Colonel in Mexico 1914.

The only thing to establish is the year of award of this medal to Thord-Gray.

Regards

Lilo

Edited October 10, 2009 by lilo

[lilo]

You can see the unkown Swedish medal at : http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/artifactView.do?idOwner=S-AM&idIdentifier=AM.087036&pageNo=1&noOnPage=12&owner=&criteria=Medalj%2c+F%c3%b6reningen&searchObjectType=Unknown&onlyWithPictures=&lastPageNo=2&noInResult=22

[lilo]

Thord-Gray wearing the unkown ribbon

[Mopsi]

Hi again Mopsi,

1)

Regarding the British WW1 Lt. Col. Uniform on page 1, it could well be that worn by Thord-Gray but with wrongly mounted ribbons belonging to another person !

2)

Regarding the Spanish Order of San Fernando, if you go on page 2 and see the Thord-Gray's ribbon bar, there is a ribbon (red with yellow edges) that although it is NOT perfectly matching with that of San Fernando, it (the ribbon) could be suitable in case the correct one is not readably available to mount. So, it can well be that the tailor that mounted the Thord-Gary's ribbon bar used a 'similar' ribbon for that of San Fernando.

Again, can you please let me know if Thord-Gray's nephew (Mj Gen Arne Hallström) did mentioned the Spanish Order of San Fernando between the Orders given to him ?

3)

There is another medal non present in your list that Thord-Gary received and that you can see mounted either in his miniature medal bar or in his ribbon bar (both on page 2).

It is a Swedish medal that I couldn't identify for its illegible (at least to me) swedish name but I'm pretty sure it is the : 'Medalj, Föreningen för skidlöpningens främjande i Sverige'

Can You please translate what exactly this medal is for ?

You can see this particular medal at :

http://www.digitaltm...3&noInResult=25

Apparently, He worn this medal from a wrong ribbon : "Blue/Yellow/Blue" instead of "Half Blue / Half Yellow".

Moreover, regarding the 'unknown medal' that on 'post 62' (page 4) you suspected to be Chinese and that is worn as a ribbon in the picture of Thord-Gray as Colonel in Mexico 1914 (see your 'post 61' and photo with 'red arrow' below), it could well be just this Swedish medal that Thord-Gray worn from the wrong ribbon.

The wrong "Blue/Yellow/Blue" ribbon used by Thord-Gray for this medal perfectly match with the 'Grey/White/Grey' colour of the 'unknown' ribbon worn in the in the picture of Thord-Gray as Colonel in Mexico 1914.

The only thing to establish is the year of award of this medal to Thord-Gray.

Regards

Lilo

MjGen Arne Hallström wrote that Thord got both San Fernando and Isabella Catolica. But not why and when.

The medal mentioned in the link to Army Museum is for marksmanship with swords. The skidlöpning medal is for promoting skiing.

[Mopsi]

The skiing medal. I think the only possible time that Thord could get such an award was in 1911. The next time he visited Sweden was in 1921 and by then he was too old to win skiing medals.

[Mopsi]

Tord also wore the Svenska Brigaden 1918 in blue-yellow-blue ribbon instead of the original as below.

[lilo]

Tord also wore the Svenska Brigaden 1918 in blue-yellow-blue ribbon instead of the original as below.

Hi Mopsi,

You are correct that Thord-Gray worn the 'Svenska Brigaden 1918' with a blue-yellow-blue ribbon (instead of its original) and the shade of the blue colour is very light.

If you see the photo of his miniature group, you can see that He worn two medals from similar 'blue-yellow-blue' ribbons :

- that I indicated with the Nr. 1 (on the left) is the 'Svenska Brigaden 1918' medal;

- the other indicated with the Nr. 2 (on the rigth) is, almost surely, the 'marksmanship with swords' medal.

Edited October 11, 2009 by lilo

[lilo]

...............................................

The medal mentioned in the link to Army Museum is for marksmanship with swords. The skidlöpning medal is for promoting skiing.

From what you have written, I have understood that there were more than one medal with similar ribbon and appearance in the Swedish medal system but as that attribuited to Thord-Gray was with two crossed swords (see : http://www.digitaltm...filterCriterias=), there is no doubt that he received that for marksmanship with swords and NOT for promoting skiing.

Now some specific question about this particular medal :

1) What is the exact name for the 'marksmanship with swords' medal (please in Swedish and in English) ???

2) Is it an official or UN-official medal ?

3) Do you retain that this medal (althought suspended from a wrong ribbon) could be that represented by the ribbon worn by Thord-Gray in the picture in which He is represented as a Colonel in Mexico in 1914 and not a Chinese one ?

4) When (the probable year) Thord-Gray could have received this medal ?

5) Was this medal clearly mentioned in the list compiled by Thord-Gray's nephew (Mj Gen Arne Hallström) as one awarded to Thord-Gray ?

Lilo

Edited October 11, 2009 by lilo

[lilo]

The marksmanship with swords medal awarded to Thord Gray :

Edited October 11, 2009 by lilo

[Mopsi]

From what you have written, I have understood that there were more than one medal with similar ribbon and appearance in the Swedish medal system but as that attribuited to Thord-Gray was with two crossed swords (see : http://www.digitaltm...filterCriterias=), there is no doubt that he received that for marksmanship with swords and NOT for promoting skiing.

Now some specific question about this particular medal :

1) What is the exact name for the 'marksmanship with swords' medal (please in Swedish and in English) ???

2) Is it an official or UN-official medal ?

3) Do you retain that this medal (althought suspended from a wrong ribbon) could be that represented by the ribbon worn by Thord-Gray in the picture in which He is represented as a Colonel in Mexico in 1914 and not a Chinese one ?

4) When (the probable year) Thord-Gray could have received this medal ?

5) Was this medal clearly mentioned in the list compiled by Thord-Gray's nephew (Mj Gen Arne Hallström) as one awarded to Thord-Gray ?

Lilo

1) Fäktning = Fencing

2) Look on the medal. There are three crowns. This is an official medal.

3) It could be that.

4) 1912 is the only plausible year. Thord had been away from Sweden since 1895. He returned Dec 1911 and left Sweden summer 1912. The next time he visited Sweden was in 1921.

5) The medal is not mentioned by MjGen Arne Hallström.

[Mopsi]

The organization issuing the Fencing Medal is Svenska Fäktförbundet established in 1904.

[lilo]

So also the period match with that of the photo as Colonel of the Mexican Army (i.e. before WW1) ??

Edited October 11, 2009 by lilo

[Mopsi]

Yes, I agree. It is known that Thord was a very good fencer. He trained it already when working as a Prison Guard on Robben Island.

[thord]

Thanks for the info and pictures of my great grandad... Very Much appreciated.

For the life of me, I have no idea how he did so much in his lifetime.

And more often than not, with excellence...

Thanks once again.

Barry Thord-Gray

Edited February 16, 2010 by thord

[Mopsi]

Thanks for the info and pictures of my great grandad... Very Much appreciated.

For the life of me, I have no idea how he did so much in his lifetime.

And more often than not, with excellence...

Thanks once again.

Barry Thord-Gray

Dear Barry,

In 2008 my biography of Ivor Thord-Gray was published in Swedish. It is now beeing translated to English. When writing the book I came so close to Thord´s family (he was within the family allways known as Thord) that i almost feel adopted by them.

Best greetings,

Stellan Bojerud