Irish Military Uniform?

[HugoB268]

Can anyone help please?

In among my late father's papers was a photograph of a gentleman in what at first appears to be that of a British Army Major's uniform. However, if you look at the right hand cuff you will see that instead of the ususal major's 'crown' there is what appears to be an Irish 'harp'. The cap badge and lapel badges also look 'strange'.

Could this be a uniform of the Irish National Volunteers?

This gentleman also appears to be wearing two medal ribbons so perhaps a veteran of earlier service in the British army?

I believe the photograph was taken 1914/15.

Grateful for any suggestions.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2009/post-7752-125257805293.jpg: Higher res scan uploaded 10Sep09

Edited September 10, 2009 by HugoB268

[coldstream]

Hugo

Is there anything written on the reverse or is there studio makers name or mark?

Excellent photo by the way.

[HugoB268]

Hi Coldsteam.

Thank you for the compliment it took ages to get rid of some of the marks/creases too!

(I can send you a scan of the photo at higher resolution if you wish - when I can use a PM facility)

Sadly there in no information on the back. (why were my family so remiss in not annotating their photos )

I'll have to give the next step some thought!

H

[Paul L Murphy]

Hugo,

Send me a high res scan as well. I do not think it is Irish but a close up look at the cap badge and collar and cuff badges will help.

Regards,

Paul

[HugoB268]

Hi Paul

I'll try to PM the original scan (approx 230KB), the harp is much clearer.

H

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Hugo,

to my eyes the cap badge bears no relationship to the FF - Sunburst cap badge of the Irish Army. To my eyes ot appears to look like a spinx (?) in a wreath.

Also the medal ribbons dont ring any bells either.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

Edited September 8, 2009 by Kev in Deva

[leigh kitchen]

Sphinx in a wreath? Intelligence, Interpretor?

[coldstream]

Just an observation but the cap being worn is unusual, Is that a slashed peak ala the Guards style or a different country's cap altogether. To my mind the cap crown looks oversized for British or Irish and the chin strap also does'nt sit right with me. Has he picked up his cap from somewhere else?

[HugoB268]

Hi Kevin

As I said, I am sure the photo was taken c1914/15 so is before the Free State came into existence.

The 1st medal ribbon may be the QSA, the 2nd, no idea.

Thanks for your thoughts anyway.

H

[HugoB268]

Leigh

Thanks for your thoughts.

Best

H

[HugoB268]

Hi Coldstream

I agree, where did he get that hat????????????

H

[Arthur R]

To me, the badge on the right cuff looks like a crown, and I'd say the ribbons are the QSA and the KSA.

The cap and collar badges certainly don't look like any British Army badges in the books which I have. Perhaps they're from one of the dominions or colonies.

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Kevin

As I said, I am sure the photo was taken c1914/15 so is before the Free State came into existence.

The 1st medal ribbon may be the QSA, the 2nd, no idea.

Thanks for your thoughts anyway.

H

Hallo H,

sorry for the delay, been having problems trying to get access to the site for the last 7 hours, my mistake I took mention of the "Irish National Volunteers" to be more towards the immediate post-War of Independence Period.

I have come across mention of the formation you identify as "Irish National Volunteers" many units were raised country wide with the approval of the British Authorities, and many of them volunteered en-masse for the British Army, and duly went off to fight in France & Flanders. They even had their own bands play them off to the station. I will have a quick check through my newspaper reference files but I cant remember any uniform details.

One other thought a University O T C Unit??Aside from that it might be worth posting the picture over at the Great War Forum, they have a shared extensive knowledge of uniforms and equipment circa WW1.

Kevin in Deva :beer:

[HugoB268]

To me, the badge on the right cuff looks like a crown, and I'd say the ribbons are the QSA and the KSA.

The cap and collar badges certainly don't look like any British Army badges in the books which I have. Perhaps they're from one of the dominions or colonies.

Hi Arthur

Thank you for your comments. I have attached different picture (sergeant in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers) that shows the same medal ribbon(s). I wonder what the one is to the left of the QSA - is it fact a full width medal ribbon , or something else? I don't think it could be the KSA because he was sent back to the UK quote " Time Exp: To England 31^10/_00" unquote according to the Medal Roll. He was discharged to the reserves in Sheffield in Jan 1901.

Also attached is as high a resolution scan I can do of the 'cuff' showing the 'harp' instead of the 'crown' - I'm sure you'll agree that it is not a crown

I agree that the cap and collar badges are unlike anything I have ever seen - anywhere in anyone's army; and I don't think he ever went anywhere 'abroad' other than England (Sheffield) and South Africa.

Thanks again.

Best

H

[HugoB268]

Hi Kevin

Yes I had a bit of bother getting onto the site earlier - thought it was my PC that keeps crashing it had better start behaving or else!

If you could have a look your newspaper files I would be most grateful.

H

BTW I am fairly sure it won't be an OTC unit either but I will post some of the pictures and see what happens on the Gt War site - thanks again.

[Paul L Murphy]

Having seen the picture you emailed to me I am pretty certain that what he is wearing is the uniform of a Commandant (equivalent to Major) in the City of Dublin Regiment of the Irish National Volunteers. They did not use the FF capbadge mentioned by Kevin, their badge was the arms of Dublin in a circle of shamrocks with the unit name on a scroll above.

Edited September 8, 2009 by Paul L Murphy

[HugoB268]

quote name='Paul L Murphy' date='08 September 2009 - 23:10 ' timestamp='1252447836' post='365565']

Having seen the picture you emailed to me I am pretty certain that what he is wearing is the uniform of a Commandant (equivalent to Major) in the City of Dublin Regiment of the Irish National Volunteers. They did not use the FF capbadge mentioned by Kevin, their badge was the arms of Dublin in a circle of shamrocks with the unit name on a scroll above.

Edited September 16, 2009 by HugoB268

[TS Allen]

Hello,

If I remember correctly, OTC wore enlisted pattern uniforms with special insignia. He's wearing an officer's pattern uniform but, he looks a bit young to be a cadet, so, he could have been an instructor.

The Sam Browne belt looks right, but, beyond the hat, his trousers are positively horrid (the cuff shouldn't be there!). I wonder about the shoes, as well, the toes don't seem rounded enough to me to be ammo boots.

~TS

[Paul L Murphy]

Hello,

If I remember correctly, OTC wore enlisted pattern uniforms with special insignia. He's wearing an officer's pattern uniform but, he looks a bit young to be a cadet, so, he could have been an instructor.

The Sam Browne belt looks right, but, beyond the hat, his trousers are positively horrid (the cuff shouldn't be there!). I wonder about the shoes, as well, the toes don't seem rounded enough to me to be ammo boots.

~TS

This is not an OTC uniform. It is the uniform of the Dublin Regt, Irish National Volunteers.

[Mervyn Mitton]

I would have thought the green and white of the KSA - he may have awarded it to himself - many did ?

I think he has the 'cheekiest' Irish smile...

[Kev in Deva]

I would have thought the green and white of the KSA - he may have awarded it to himself - many did ?

I think he has the 'cheekiest' Irish smile...

Hallo MM.

The ribbon of the KSA was Green, White and Orange

and I doubt that many men would award medals to themselves.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[Mervyn Mitton]

Hi - Kevin - yes, I'm going by the white and if he didn't serve elsewhere then the KSA would follow. Can't make it out properly. As for troops awarding extra medals, bars etc. - you would be amazed how common it is - they didn't like to go to re-unions or local events and have fewer than the next man...

The worst I ever had was a group starting with 1879 Zulu, through 1882 Egypt, then Boer War and WW1. I think it was 6 or 7 medals - every medal to a different unit and only the WW1 War Medal was actually his. He applied for a pension for all of them - this was granted - but, in 1921 they obviously checked the records and stopped his pension. He cont. to appeal against this until the late 1920's - all the letters were with the medals.

[HugoB268]

I would have thought the green and white of the KSA - he may have awarded it to himself - many did ?

I think he has the 'cheekiest' Irish smile...

Hi Kev/Mervin

Many thanks for your comments. One thought that did occur to me , did the 'management' of the National Volunteers issue any 'commemorative' medals for any purpose? An article in Freemans Journal for 20 April 1915 records that a L/Cpl in my grandfathers company (F Coy, 2nd Batt, Dublin Regiment INV) left Dublin to join the 8th Batt, Royal Dublin Fusiliers at Buttevant wearing his INV uniform - perhaps 'other medals' could have been worn with permission?

Re the smile, I remember my father saying that his father had an 'impish' sense of humour.

Edited September 17, 2009 by HugoB268

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo HugoB268,

looking through my reference files there is mention of the INV band playing the

recruits off from Ballina Train Station, in County Mayo and reference to an entire company of the INV joining up en-mass,to fight the Germans, frustratingly there is no mention of uniform details.

I personally have never heard of any medals being issued, as the organisation was not in

service long enough for that, and I doubt the wearing of South African Medal ribbons from the Boer side would have been tolerated, maybe Chris B. would have an idea about that.

Kevin in Deva. :cheers:

[Paul L Murphy]

Hi Kev/Mervin

Many thanks for your comments. One thought that did occur to me , did the 'management' of the National Volunteers issue any 'commemorative' medals for any purpose? An article in Freemans Journal for 20 April 1915 records that a L/Cpl in my grandfathers company (F Coy, 2nd Batt, Dublin Regiment INV) left Dublin to join the 8th Batt, Royal Dublin Fusiliers at Buttevant wearing his INV uniform - perhaps 'other medals' could have been worn with permission?

Re the smile, I remember my father saying that his father had an 'impish' sense of humour.

There is no reference anywhere to medals being awarded by the National Volunteers or the Irish Volunteers. These are most likely the QSA and KSA. What we must remember is that at this time the "mission" of the Volunteers was to ensure that the Home Rule Bill was passed into law, not the achievement of a Republic. Hence the wearing of British medal ribbons would probably have been tolerated since the organisation was not seeking a break with the Empiure, just a redefinition of the position of Ireland within that.