Jeff Mc William Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 (edited) Can someone help a confused novice in the matter of Chinese OD&M's : I am anxiously seeking information regarding the "Order of the Precious Star" (Pao Hsing) also I believe called the "Order of the Button" instigated (I think) in 1862 and awarded to several British Officers and men of the Anglo Chinese Contingent, presumably for their services in the Taiping Wars. The Order is very briefly referred to in Tancred (published in 1891). One item is listed in the RUSI Catalogue published in 1916, and there is also another mention in the OMRS Journal (Autumn 1982). So I quite expected to find a more detailed description in the latest book "Chinese Orders 1862-1955" by Gongqing Li as outlined in the Chinese Blog http://chinesemedal.wordpress.com also given in a previous thread on this forum..but..nothing, tho' it does seem to have a remarkable similarity with the "Order of the Double Dragon" ?? Could anybody clarify please ?? Jeff Edited October 9, 2009 by Jeff Mc William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 From the ONLY reference I could find--unfortunately without illustration-- C.N. Elvin's 1892 "The Hand-Book of the Orders of Chivalry, War Medals & Crosses..." it appears that this was not actually an Order but an assortment of similar looking local awards simply sharing certain design motifs. He refers to it here as an "Order" but Werlich did not. r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mc William Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 (edited) From the ONLY reference I could find--unfortunately without illustration-- C.N. Elvin's 1892 "The Hand-Book of the Orders of Chivalry, War Medals & Crosses..." it appears that this was not actually an Order but an assortment of similar looking local awards simply sharing certain design motifs. He refers to it here as an "Order" but Werlich did not. r Rick. Thanks very much for this..it looks as tho' we are off to a good start ! I wonder if anyone "out there" has any pics they can show me ? I do know there were at least four grades, viz : The Red Button, Green Button, Blue Button, and Crystal Button. This last may also have been known as the White Button ?? Regards Jeff PS What does Werlich actually say ? Edited October 10, 2009 by Jeff Mc William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 No mention at all of anything but the Double Dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Hoard Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 From the ONLY reference I could find--unfortunately without illustration-- C.N. Elvin's 1892 "The Hand-Book of the Orders of Chivalry, War Medals & Crosses..." it appears that this was not actually an Order but an assortment of similar looking local awards simply sharing certain design motifs. He refers to it here as an "Order" but Werlich did not. r The writer is completely confused. There was no "Order of the Button". Imperial court rank was symbolised by uniforms worn by all imperial officials (mandarins and military officers), their several classes were distinguished by an elaborate costume. As part of this, they wore a distinguishing girdle and cap with a peacock feather. At the top of the cap were "balls" called "buttons" with different sprecious materials denoting the rank of the wearer: Princes not of the Imperial Family and 1st class military and civil courtiers – ruby button 2nd class – red coral 3rd class – sapphire 4th class – opaque stone 5th class – transparent crystal 6th class – jade 7th class – embossed gold 8th class – plain gold 9th class – silver Cheers, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mc William Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) The writer is completely confused. There was no "Order of the Button". Imperial court rank was symbolised by uniforms worn by all imperial officials (mandarins and military officers), their several classes were distinguished by an elaborate costume. As part of this, they wore a distinguishing girdle and cap with a peacock feather. At the top of the cap were "balls" called "buttons" with different sprecious materials denoting the rank of the wearer: Princes not of the Imperial Family and 1st class military and civil courtiers – ruby button 2nd class – red coral 3rd class – sapphire 4th class – opaque stone 5th class – transparent crystal 6th class – jade 7th class – embossed gold 8th class – plain gold 9th class – silver Cheers, James James. Oh dear..now I really am confused ! To which "writer" are you referring, Rick or Elvin (or me !) ? Also, you seem to infer that these "buttons" served only as badges of rank for Imperial Officials. But, if this is so, what were these "Order of the Button" awards given to the four men of the 67th Regt in 1862 mentioned by Elvin (and incidently Tancred) ? Also I am aware of similar awards to the Royal Artillery and the Anglo Chinese Contingent. So, while I bow to your obvious superior knowledge in these matters, to say that I am now more confused than ever is an understatement ! Cheers Jeff Edited October 11, 2009 by Jeff Mc William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Hoard Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 James. Oh dear..now I really am confused ! To which "writer" are you referring, Rick or Elvin (or me !) ? Also, you seem to infer that these "buttons" served only as badges of rank for Imperial Officials. But, if this is so, what were these "Order of the Button" awards given to the four men of the 67th Regt in 1862 mentioned by Elvin (and incidently Tancred) ? Also I am aware of similar awards to the Royal Artillery and the Anglo Chinese Contingent. So, while I bow to your obvious superior knowledge in these matters, to say that I am now more confused than ever is an understatement ! Cheers Jeff Jeff, I meant Elvin. Apart from all the confused jibberish about the buttons, please read again the bit under "Ruby Button". Ask yourself why would something called a "Ruby Button" have a red or blue crystal in the centre? No mention of a ruby anywhere in sight. Is he talking about a medal, a star or a badge? It is something different in every sentence. What "Imperial Arms of China"? There were none. The clawed dragon was the Imperial symbol, which one could possibly describe as a badge, but "Coat of Arms"? One needs supporters, a shield, etc, etc for those. From the meagre descriptions of the other two items, it looks like he is talking about awards made by imperial officials or government agencies/ministries rather than official imperial awards. Everyone from local generals to the ambassadors in London and Berlin gave out their own inscribed medals. Please note that the grades of the Order of the Double Dragon were also denoted by crystals, jade, coral, sapphire's etc. So it could conceivably be that Elvin is really trying to describe these, but one cannot be sure. I am afraid that I cannot comment on what I have not seen so cannot saying anything about the other soldiers from the 67th you mention. Although senior ranking foreign nationals in service with the admiralty, war office or Imperial Maritime Customs did receive such appointments, that was because they were mandarins themselves. I am thinking of the likes of Gordon of Khartoun and Sir Robert Hart. Alas, these folk were 'Gods'. It is highly unlikely that a simple soldier would be given anything like the ruby or coral button. But do also keep in mind that whenever someone gets a foreign award, it is invariably termed "the highest" order/decoration/medal. A simple Chevalier of the Legion of Honour is invariably reported as having received "France's highest honour". Nobody ever says he got the lowest. Cheers James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mc William Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 James. Thank you for your most courteous and informative reply. If you will excuse me now for a short while I will consult further the details which I referred to in my original post, plus anything else I can find which might clarify the situation. It is a great pity I feel that neither Elvin or Tancred were able to provide illustrations of this particular device in their otherwise excellent early works. I notice you referred to the similarity with the Order of the Double dragon..which indeed I also did in my first post, and it seems Elvin was aware of this also from the vestige of the page in Rick's attachment. Have you any comments re the alternative title for the "Button" award, viz ; "Precious Star (Pao Hsing)" also mentioned in my first post ? Hopefully I will get back to you shortly with the remaining details which I have..tho' not unfortunately any pictures. Regards Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Hoard Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 James. Thank you for your most courteous and informative reply. If you will excuse me now for a short while I will consult further the details which I referred to in my original post, plus anything else I can find which might clarify the situation. It is a great pity I feel that neither Elvin or Tancred were able to provide illustrations of this particular device in their otherwise excellent early works. I notice you referred to the similarity with the Order of the Double dragon..which indeed I also did in my first post, and it seems Elvin was aware of this also from the vestige of the page in Rick's attachment. Have you any comments re the alternative title for the "Button" award, viz ; "Precious Star (Pao Hsing)" also mentioned in my first post ? Hopefully I will get back to you shortly with the remaining details which I have..tho' not unfortunately any pictures. Regards Jeff Hi Jeff, I am very sorry to say that I do not know anything about te "Precious Star" award. As you say, without illustrations, it is difficult to say very much. Cheers, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUSSONNEAU Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Hello, Just have a glance on the excellent JOMSA website : http://www.omsa.org/...ery.php?cat=590 Truly yours Cussonneau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mc William Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 Hello, Just have a glance on the excellent JOMSA website : http://www.omsa.org/...ery.php?cat=590 Truly yours Cussonneau Thank you Cussonneau. What an amazing and interesting site ! After looking at this I guess the so called "Order of the Button" refers in fact to one or all of these delightful Chinese Orders of Merit. Thank you again for your kind and generous (and most helpful) reply. Sincerely. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LaTondre Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Rick. Thanks very much for this..it looks as tho' we are off to a good start ! I wonder if anyone "out there" has any pics they can show me ? I do know there were at least four grades, viz : The Red Button, Green Button, Blue Button, and Crystal Button. This last may also have been known as the White Button ?? Regards Jeff PS What does Werlich actually say ? Photographs of these awards can be found at the Orders and Medals Society of America Website at: http://www.omsa.org/modules/Jig/index.php Dick LaTondre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilo Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 (edited) Hi Jeff, Reading what is it written at : http://chinesemedal....ers-2009-08-13/ , I understood that what is called 'Order of the Button', really it is the early type of the Double Dragon Order. In my opinion, the words 'Order of the Button' generated from a westerner identification of this Order that, for lack of information or for whatever other reason, the Occidentals not knowing how to call it, simply seeing the central stone on this type of Order, at some point started to call it as : 'Order of the Button'. Regards Lilo Edited November 28, 2009 by lilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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