Mervyn Mitton Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 We have just had an exceptionally researched 1895 officer's sword from Jonathan - in fact we were fortunate that he showed the four of this pattern in his collection. The one I am showing is the 1897 pattern - with the smaller holes in the guard. This one is for King Edward 7th. - 1901 - 1910. Being in such smaller numbers than those with the VR cypher , they often can command a higher price. This example is in good condition and with a very clean blade - the rarity, though, is in it's maker. I will come to this when the picture comes-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 The guard has yet to be cleaned. The overall length of the blade is 31 inches ( 75cm) - it is interesting that a British officer's sword can vary in length between 31 inches and 37 inches ( 90cm) and is made according to the height of the wearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) H.J. HENOCHSBERG CONTRACTOR This company were the makers of this sword and it is unusual - at this date - to have an overseas factory. For many years in the 18th and early 19th. Centuries very many British swords were made under contract - usually in Germany. They had better production facilities and were often regarded as making a better weapon then the British companies were producing. But that was a 100 years earlier and by the 1900's we had many expert swordmakers - so why, a contract manufacturer in Germany ? I will be very interested in members' opinions on this and - hopefully, someone can tell us about the firm of Henochsberg ? My own opinion is motivated by the date. When King Edward 7th. came to the Throne in 1901, the Boer War was still at it's height - officers - both those already in action and those being Commissioned - would want a sword with the new Cypher. Remember Queen Victoria is our longest serving Monarch - 63 years - and most people had lived all their lives under Her reign. I can imagine a great rush for the new cypher on swords and to keep up with the demand, I think they ' contracted out' - a return to earlier days. As an aside - I will shortly be 73, but even so , I have only lived under 3 Monarchs. Edward 8th; George 6th; and Queen Elizabeth. And Edward 8th. reigned for only a short period - his abdication took place on the day of my birth. Edited November 19, 2009 by Mervyn Mitton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Hopkins Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Nice sword, Mervyn. Thank you for sharing! I do not currently have access to my books, but I think you will find that Henochsberg was a South African retailer (operating out of Johannesburg). Googling "HJ Henochsberg" brings up results for passenger lists to S.A. from 1903, and among the passengers was one Mr. H.J. Henochsberg. Do you have any close-up photos of the proof disk? Do you know the width of the blade where it enters the guard? By 1900 there were not substantially more British makers than during the Napoleonic period. However, there were more retailers and military outfitters (at least more of them were having their business names etched on the blades). The major private makers c.1900 were Wilkinson and Mole, who supplied many of the tailors and outfitters whose names now adorn many officers' swords (there were others, too, e.g. Fenton Bros. and Thurkle). A few tailors retailed German-made swords, but these are not terribly common. Most officers would not have bothered replacing their existing swords just to incorporate the new monarch's cypher. That would have been an expensive and impractical undertaking. A broken or defective sword may have been re-hilted or re-bladed and would therefore have had the new cypher, but there would not have been any large scale rush to get an ERVII on a hilt or blade. There may be fewer P1897s marked with ERVII than VR--I don't really have any way of knowing. I think few collectors would place a premium on an ERVII cypher ( of course that depends on the collector). They are pretty common in my experience. P1897s with GRV cyphers are by far the most common. Wilkinson alone made over 10,000 during the period 1914-18. Edward VIII cyphers are the most rare given his short reign. All the best, Jonathan PS--In summary, you have a nice Edwardian example of a locally retailed British officer's sword! Edited November 19, 2009 by Jonathan Hopkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Wolfe Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 A very nice sword Mervyn, thanks for posting it. Regards Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 Jonathan - thankyou for that info. - I had gone off on the wrong track, thinking it was a German manufacturer. I had not thought of it being a South African retailer - didn't think we were so sophisticated in those days... I will try to look up some trade directories to see who they were - I wonder who the actual makers were ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Hopkins Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Jonathan - thankyou for that info. - I had gone off on the wrong track, thinking it was a German manufacturer. I had not thought of it being a South African retailer - didn't think we were so sophisticated in those days... I will try to look up some trade directories to see who they were - I wonder who the actual makers were ? Mervyn, A close-up of the proof disc may help us determine who made the blade. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Hopkins Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Mervyn, Have you had a chance to get a photo of the brass proof disc? Even if you could describe it I might be able to figure out who made the sword and supplied it to Henochsberg. All the best, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Thankyou Jonathan - I must be honest and say I had forgotten to check. Will do so tomorrow - no Friday - I only go into the shop on three mornings now. Hope you are finding some new items. Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 Jonathan - any help will be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAUL HERMAN Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 H.J. HENOCHSBERG CONTRACTOR This company were the makers of this sword and it is unusual - at this date - to have an overseas factory. For many years in the 18th and early 19th. Centuries very many British swords were made under contract - usually in Germany. They had better production facilities and were often regarded as making a better weapon then the British companies were producing. But that was a 100 years earlier and by the 1900's we had many expert swordmakers - so why, a contract manufacturer in Germany ? I will be very interested in members' opinions on this and - hopefully, someone can tell us about the firm of Henochsberg ? My own opinion is motivated by the date. When King Edward 7th. came to the Throne in 1901, the Boer War was still at it's height - officers - both those already in action and those being Commissioned - would want a sword with the new Cypher. Remember Queen Victoria is our longest serving Monarch - 63 years - and most people had lived all their lives under Her reign. I can imagine a great rush for the new cypher on swords and to keep up with the demand, I think they ' contracted out' - a return to earlier days. As an aside - I will shortly be 73, but even so , I have only lived under 3 Monarchs. Edward 8th; George 6th; and Queen Elizabeth. And Edward 8th. reigned for only a short period - his abdication took place on the day of my birth. Dear Mervyn, Whilst doing research relating to our family the Henochsberg family I came upon your note above. H.J.Henochsberg was my great-great uncle who imigrated to South aFrica in 1880 and started a Uniform tailoring business in Durban and Pietermaritzberg with his partner. He moved to Johannesburg in 1903 to the old Masonic Building in Jeppe street and formed H.J.Henochsberg [Pty] Ltd Uniform Manufacturers. The company closed operations in 1990. My late father was the Managing Director of the company frpm 1939 though 1978. I was an active Director of the company from 1961. We were military uniform manufacturers and complete uniform outfitters. Swords were made for us in England by Wilkinson Sword's with our branding. Like many other accoutrements that we did not make in the factory Sword's, Aigulettes and buttons were purchased out - in order that we could supply a complete uniform. We were contractors to the South African Defence forces, South African Police, South African Railways and Fire Brigades throughout South Africa. We also made up uniforms for most of the films portraying Boer and Border battles working closely with the Sa.War Museum in Johannesburg. I would value getting photo's of any other Henochsberg Swords. One of H.J.Henochsberg's brothers was well known for his Henochs Lever pocket watch. Best wishes, Paul Herman p.herman@sympatico.ca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Dear Paul - firstly, welcome to GMIC. With your background you will be an invaluable source for Sth. African information and I am sure many members will be as surprised as I was to see your reply. I know that Jonathan will be pleased. Unfortunately this sub-forum does not get a great response - which is a pity - swords, bayonets and knives are an important collecting subject. Your family business was so obviously a well known one, that I reproach myself for not recognising it - however, although I lived in Durban in the 1950's I was not in the Services. Are you still in business in Canada - or, have you - sensibly - retired ? Once again , thankyou for giving us this info. - incidentally, the sword is available . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Hopkins Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I contacted Robert Wilkinson Latham about the possible maker of this sword, and he has kindly allowed me to share his reply here: I have had a long hard look at the proof mark and surround as well as the etching style of the name and after comparison with other makers (sword makers NOT sellers or importers) etching and proof surround mark and style of this type of work have come to the conclusion (99% sure) that this sword, a so called TRADE sword (This was a swordmakers term for the trade swords they supplied to retailers which has lesser finish and blade etching), was supplied to H.J.Henochsberg of South Africa by George Thurkle in the period 1901-1910. 1900 1902 23 Lisle St 1903 1906 4 High St, Bloomsbury 1907 1912 21 Denmark Place, Charing Cross Road No other maker's work matches. I suppose it could well be a Solingen import but the etching style rather precludes this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Jonathan - thank you for taking so much time and trouble. Also, please thank Mr. Wilkinson Latham - his input is greatly appreciated - I do have his ref. books. You will have seen the surprising reply from Paul Herman - whose family owned the original suppliers. Although he says Wilkinsons's supplied the swords , there are, of course, variations with suppliers and it would seem that this is such a case. I am hoping that Paul will be able to help us a little more with this identification - and also, tell us more about the Company. My very best wishes for Christmas and a good 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Hopkins Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Mervyn, I will let Robert know that his input is appreciated. He said he would not be surprised if Wilkinson supplied the firm in the 1960s, but that the sword that is the subject of this thread is not made by Wilkinson (probably Thurkle, as he suspects). Paul's input and family connection have been very enlightening and have added more depth to your sword's history. If it is alright, I will show this topic to the owner of OldSwords.com, which has a sword maker and retailer database. I am sure he will find this information very enlightening. All the best (and Merry Christmas!), Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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