I've Just Got To Laugh....

[Dieter3]

Good Lord. Some of the things you see for sale, well, they are what they are - people aren't all that stupid when it comes to stuff like this, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, etc., etc., but some things just make me laugh. Comments were made in another thread about items for sale being labeled as "rare" when they are not - to add to that, it just gets me when things are advertised in conditions they are not - this item is currently being sold as "extremely fine condition" for a rather high starting price.

Like I said, any idiot can see otherwise, but I'd hate to see the seller's definition of "poor condition".....gimme a break!! This kind of thing just kills me. So, what sorts of things get your goat???

[Jareth]

That enamal looks in exc. condition on that kite! The ribbon could always be replaced with an original from a lower class. My pet peeve are fantasy vet stories or any stories period! I judge an item on it's merits not any fancifull tales. I'd like to get a tatoo in gothic type along my arm that would say "buy the item not the story!" For instance we know the Japanese didn't wear medals into combat like the Germans but I see ratty Japanese medals sold as taken off a dead soldier etc when they're real just been poorly handled & stored.

[Dieter3]

Yeah, these pictures aren't quite so nice, the enamel looks O.K., but to me once you replace a ribbon, it's not original anymore, even if the ribbon is original. I'd hate to destroy a nice lower class medal to harvest the ribbon. I'd just replace the ribbon with a new production one and let it be just that. This one is pricey too, I'd honestly be surprised if they got that initial price for it. Hey, some people will pay a lot of money for stuff though - as you well know in the Arisaka world!! I've not one in my possession, but I have seen several Kites for sale infinitely better, and cheaper than this one.

If this sellers thinks this is "extremely fine", then I've got some to sell that would qualify as 3, or 4x better than mint manufacture! Seriously, there's gotta be a realistic, uniform grading system for these items, yeah? Personally, I'd rank this piece as Poor, maybe Poor+, but what do I know?

[Paul L Murphy]

I would describe it as "Very Fine with ribbon damage and toning". Japanese items are one of the countries where you want to avoid changing ribbons (unlike British medals where that is less of an issue). A piece in this condition would never sell in Japan unless it was for about 25% of the normal market price.

[azyeoman]

I would describe it as "Very Fine with ribbon damage and toning". Japanese items are one of the countries where you want to avoid changing ribbons (unlike British medals where that is less of an issue). A piece in this condition would never sell in Japan unless it was for about 25% of the normal market price.

Would it not sell in Japan because they prefer only pristine items? Personally, I like items that were worn and/or used by the soldier, sailor or airman. It's a matter of taste, but an medal or insignia that is was unissued and sat on a shelf is less interesting to me than one that has that "was-there" look about it. On the other hand, I'll be the first to admit that I always look at condtion and rarity in conjunction to the history. In short, do you think there are "cultural" differences in collecting militaria? In general, do the Japanese only want perfect single medals that are cased? Have never been fortunate enough to visit Japan, it would be interesting to know what you think. Cheers and happy New Year to everyone!

[Dieter3]

While I do not know any Japanese persons that collect medals and awards, I do know Japanese that collect other militaria - granted, not in Japan as much of it is illegal, or otherwise very hard to come by. But these are items that really have "been there" - weapons sometimes with known histories or obvious signs of having been in battle, etc, or other items that have clear use - far more difficult to find pristine specimens. Medals?? I think that is a bit harder to figure - yeah, if something like this medal belonged to somebody and it could be proven, SURE! That changes everything.

Somebody might have worn it at some point, but it's really hard to tell, ain't it? Could as easily be a piece simply neglected by previous owner(s). Documents on the other hand, with actual names of meaning, etc., yeah, O.K., I'm with you! But there's also the flip-side - where people have really taken care of stuff over the ages, and it shows! Given one or the other, I'd take the nice one, all else being equal!

Again, individual tastes for different people!! No problem with that at all - but I'm just talking about things being described as something they clearly are not.

[Jareth]

My main interest is in Japanese headgear. My collecting goal is to have one mint & one issued (named) example. I like both. When it comes to medals/orders I'd prefer mint condition items. Just because a medal is less than exc. & ribbon is soiled etc has no bearing it was actually an issued medal worn by a Japanese soldier.

[Kryptos]

Interesting topic.

My fave story to tell in this area is about an Eastern Winter campaign German medal. See the same seller over here trying to sell the same medal at almost every antique fair I go to. Charging twice the price I can get one from overseas in mint condition (maybe even with packet of issue) including shipping and spins this story about how this medal comes from Stalingrad and therefore must have been damaged in the fire. Meanwhile it is a zincker with zinc pest!!

Nah, when it comes to medals I say go for as mint and unaltered as possible.

It is so difficult to be sure the wear comes from combat and not bad storage for the last 60+ years. And have even heard of people who have shot up perfectly good medals to sell that as intense battle mementos because of the bullet holes.

Not to mention that I firmly believe that trying to clean a medal will almost always devalue it.

This example shown here is so typical of the seller out there who pawns off everything that is old as valuable. And the sad thing is, he will always find a buyer.

[Paul L Murphy]

Would it not sell in Japan because they prefer only pristine items? Personally, I like items that were worn and/or used by the soldier, sailor or airman. It's a matter of taste, but an medal or insignia that is was unissued and sat on a shelf is less interesting to me than one that has that "was-there" look about it. On the other hand, I'll be the first to admit that I always look at condtion and rarity in conjunction to the history. In short, do you think there are "cultural" differences in collecting militaria? In general, do the Japanese only want perfect single medals that are cased? Have never been fortunate enough to visit Japan, it would be interesting to know what you think. Cheers and happy New Year to everyone!

Correct. The Japanese like items in excellent condition. They do not have to be pristine, however they do need to have complete original ribbons and no enamel damage. Also I have seen boxed examples regualrly go for more than doubel the price of the unboxed medal, effectively giving the case the same inherent value as the medal itself !

[Dieter3]

Indeed!! I've noted how much extra value cases and even rosettes add to certain pieces.

[azyeoman]

Correct. The Japanese like items in excellent condition. They do not have to be pristine, however they do need to have complete original ribbons and no enamel damage. Also I have seen boxed examples regualrly go for more than doubel the price of the unboxed medal, effectively giving the case the same inherent value as the medal itself !

Thanks Paul. I appreciate the insight. Do you think there are differences in collecting when it comes to other cultures;i.e., Germans, Russians, etc.? I've only just started collecting Japanese medals and find the bars most attractive. I've always found that to be the same with German medals too; perhaps it's due to the fact that they're unnamed for the most part and so I looik to find some sort of tangible connection with the original recipient. Having collected British medals for over 30 years, it's easy to make that connection as they're named (for the most part) and so easy to research. As someone who has obviously traveled extensively and has an etensively knowledge of medal collecting, it would be an interesting turn for this strand to know what people have recognized as cultural collecting traits, if any. Perhaps there are collectors elsewhere who only want relics as opposed to pristine examples or singles as oppossed to groups. The "menu" for collectors is quite long a varied, but I suspect there may be generalizations that are made vis-a-vis cultures and/or nationalities.

PS: After all is said and done, I've paid more for a boxed or cased St. Helene than I would have for a couple of St. Helenes by themselves so know the feeling.

[Kryptos]

Perhaps there are collectors elsewhere who only want relics as opposed to pristine examples or singles as oppossed to groups.

I know there are collectors who focus on 'ground finds'. Guess it all has to do with why we collect. Being able to link a medal to a specific person and therefore history, to me, is the ultimate.

[Dieter3]

Yeah, I would agree with that. For me anyway, the more historically connected a piece is (whether it be medals, guns, helmets, etc., etc.,) the more valuable it is, monetarily, yes, but more importantly mentally more valuable.

Obviously, with certain things pristine or near mint, whatever you want to cal it - is rare to achieve. With Japanese medals it doesn't seem all that hard really to find really nice pieces. Granted, my definition of "MINT" is just that - the piece is as it appeared or damn close to it when it was first made. Seen plenty of things for sale on "mint" condition - please sellers - read the definition!! I'm very hard when I grade things though, perhaps unfairly but that's me.

When I see people define things the way they do, I guess a lot of them are putting it into perspective based on age and comparisons to the average. Yeah, O.K., I guess I can see that. I just don't know about the whole "excellent for it's age" thing though - yeah, I can appreciate that too - but for the items in my own collection, I don't care how old it is - everything gets graded on the same basis regardless of age. I mean, why not? You can find very old pieces truly in remarkable condition simply because they were cared for, stored, handled in such a way that made them last as such. I also grade things on the whole package - if it's just a medal, then it is graded as that - if it is a medal, a case, a complete package, what have you - then it gets graded as the complete package - if the medal is excellent but the case is trashed - then it ain't excellent!! It might be fair, or good, etc.

[Kryptos]

100% agreed on that one Dieter.

And yes, sometimes rarity of an item needs to take precedence over absolute mint condition.

[Dieter3]

Described as "Superb Condition" - The front ain't too bad really, but never mind the black crud, abraded area, and lack of a hook on the back side.....

I mean, really??? "Superb"???

Maybe "Fair-" to "Poor+"

[Dieter3]

And....described as "Near Mint" - lack of hook, catch, abrasions, holes, black whatever notwithstanding.......I remain puzzled.

Am I just an over-criticla jerk??

"Poor" grade in my very humble opinion.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Dieter3

[Paul L Murphy]

Further proof that you should stick with reliable sellers like myself

:cheers:

[azyeoman]

Further proof that you should stick with reliable sellers like myself

Well, you're right. I know you're not tooting your own horn, but you are right. I've only got a couple of items from you, but they are just as you described and not leaving my collection!

Cheers,

[Dieter3]

Well, you're right. I know you're not tooting your own horn, but you are right. I've only got a couple of items from you, but they are just as you described and not leaving my collection!

Cheers,

I echo that - the items that I have procured from Paul have always been no surprises, as described! We have a couple of other members here whose items I've purchased and same thing - I've always been pleased!

[grimnar]

Gday,

At one of the local auctions here, I had a gentleman hassle me over a 2 medals (39/45 Star and BWM) that had no plating or gilt left on them and no names. He claimed that they were the "rare" unfinnished type, that only 5 were ever issued. I shook my head and kept walking.

[Kryptos]

:lol:

Yeah, a while back they were selling rejected NSDAP membership pin proofs for more than a mint fully finished enameled sepcimen over here. :banger: