New ribbon bar- seeking opinions

[M Hunter]

Gentlemen,

My latest Hansa related aquisition. Before i purchased i had a brief discussion with a fellow forum member about this bar (thanks again Timo ) so my mind was put to rest that the bar was most likely authentic. Once i had it here i used my new black-light device and it passes the test, it also looks and smells old (read about doing that here on the forum...very good advice).

My question is why does the Hohenzollern Order come before the KVKX2? Should they not be the other way around? Maybe a period mistake?

Looking forward to your opinions chaps!

As always my thanks

Matt

Edited January 29, 2010 by M Hunter

[M Hunter]

Reverse of bar

Edited January 29, 2010 by M Hunter

[M Hunter]

Close-up 1

Edited January 29, 2010 by M Hunter

[M Hunter]

Close-up 2

Edited January 29, 2010 by M Hunter

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch: Twins!

This is a very old scan, hence small-- but pretty good chance you've got another one to "my" guy. Have had this for decades.

I have never totally abandoned hope for identifying my/your... OUR guy. HOH3X, Hamburg, Wehrmacht (E) officer with 12 and 4, Westwall...

Your KVK2X added (in correct place) increases my gut feeling that this was a Pioneers officer rather than one of the other fortification zone units. That should further narrow down suspects (maybe).

Will make new scans. Aside from the fat versus thin eagles, looks like both bars came from the same outfitter, too.

Commence singification of the "It's A Small, Small World" song.... :catjava:

Edited January 30, 2010 by Rick Research

[M Hunter]

Twins!

This is a very old scan, hence small-- but pretty good chance you've got another one to "my" guy. Have had this for decades.

I have never totally abandoned hope for identifying my/your... OUR guy. HOH3X, Hamburg, Wehrmacht (E) officer with 12 and 4, Westwall...

Your KVK2X added (in correct place) increases my gut feeling that this was a Pioneers officer rather than one of the other fortification zone units. That should further narrow down suspects (maybe).

Will make new scans. Aside from the fat versus thin eagles, looks like both bars came from the same outfitter, too.

Commence singification of the "It's A Small, Small World" song....

WOW Rick!! This is amazing!

Though i must say i thought my ribbon bar had 2 gold eagles rather than one in gold, other in silver. Now the eagle on the left is a lot more "golden"...so maybe the silver finish wore off the eagle on the right, leaving this dull gold/brass coloured base metal?

If so there was me thinking i had snagged another General's bar! As you can now see from my Avatar i have put my Gen.Lt. Dittmar bar as the image.....wouldn't have this to say if it were not for Rick gents!! The chap's a real wizard!

Many thanks

Matt

Edited January 30, 2010 by M Hunter

[Guest Rick Research]

Brand new bigger scans. Looks like identical Spangen and all.

The two eagles on yours have scanned notably different colors. Try looking at the edges of the 2nd eagle where they touch the ribbon-- less air and wear and should see more true metal color, but looks like a 12 and 4 same as mine.

So close, in fact, I'd date these bars both circa end of 1941. It wasn't allowed to wear a 1939 KVK2X with a 2nd Class 1939 EK2 (including Spange) until October 1941. I'd say mine was made really close to that BEFORE the permission was allowed and yours came soon thereafter with the 2-years-on-the-desk-job KVK2X, for the same wearer from the same shop. The matching "toast" shade of the Westwall medal ribbon is another reason I think so, since those varied from a golden-tawny color almost light enough to be a Lifesaving medal to quite a dull brown.

If we had the Hamburg Hanseatic roll transcribed, eventually a process of elimination WOULD turn this guy up. Probably Oberleutnant/char. Hauptmann aD 1920, back as a Hauptmann (E) and ended the war as a senior Oberstleutnant (S) or lucky Oberst (S) though with the Spange he could have been promoted within the frontline (T) officers and then certainly would have made Oberst.

Looking through the Border Fortress Zone sorts of officers in the January 1939 Rank List, I don't see many (E) officers there except on Fortress Pioneer Staffs. The infantry, artillery, and signals units posted along the border seem to have been staffed by younger regulars.

Unlike the "day tripper" Flowers Campaign Medals of 1938-39, the Westwall Medal had to have been earned by REAL service in the border fortifications, seeming to rule out stray "visitors" for most mere mortals.

[M Hunter]

Brand new bigger scans. Looks like identical Spangen and all.

The two eagles on yours have scanned notably different colors. Try looking at the edges of the 2nd eagle where they touch the ribbon-- less air and wear and should see more true metal color, but looks like a 12 and 4 same as mine.

So close, in fact, I'd date these bars both circa end of 1941. It wasn't allowed to wear a 1939 KVK2X with a 2nd Class 1939 EK2 (including Spange) until October 1941. I'd say mine was made really close to that BEFORE the permission was allowed and yours came soon thereafter with the 2-years-on-the-desk-job KVK2X, for the same wearer from the same shop. The matching "toast" shade of the Westwall medal ribbon is another reason I think so, since those varied from a golden-tawny color almost light enough to be a Lifesaving medal to quite a dull brown.

If we had the Hamburg Hanseatic roll transcribed, eventually a process of elimination WOULD turn this guy up. Probably Oberleutnant/char. Hauptmann aD 1920, back as a Hauptmann (E) and ended the war as a senior Oberstleutnant (S) or lucky Oberst (S) though with the Spange he could have been promoted within the frontline (T) officers and then certainly would have made Oberst.

Looking through the Border Fortress Zone sorts of officers in the January 1939 Rank List, I don't see many (E) officers there except on Fortress Pioneer Staffs. The infantry, artillery, and signals units posted along the border seem to have been staffed by younger regulars.

Unlike the "day tripper" Flowers Campaign Medals of 1938-39, the Westwall Medal had to have been earned by REAL service in the border fortifications, seeming to rule out stray "visitors" for most mere mortals.

Rick,

Yes these bars are definately closely matched, no denying it. The devices (with the exception of the eagels) are very similar as well as the colour of the ribbons...(West Wall as you say, as well as the Hamburg Cross IMO) Not to mention the placement of the eagle device, one slightly higher than the other. So very pobbible made by the same out-fitter.

I had a look at my eagles as you instructed above....no trace of silver anywhere on the right-hand one, not even between the eagle's head and wings...but we have both agreed there is a distinct colour difference.

Really hope this chap turns up. Let me know what i can do to help.

My best

Matt

Edited January 30, 2010 by M Hunter