IrishGunner Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Just found this one in a box... a S J (Stefano Johnson, Milano) version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketscientist Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Hello! I can't remember whether I had posted this medal in the past or not, but still I need help to identify it. Opinions from whoever has knowledge or experience of either faked commemorative 1915-18 medals or of unofficial productions will be very welcome. Long ago I purchased this Commemorative Medal of the Italy-Austria War 1915-18 with no markings and that is significantly different from the medal of any known manufacturer. Everything is strange of this medal, starting from the color of the bronze to the size of the figures, and in particular there are heavy signs of filing all around the brim. The name of the medal's designer (S.CANEVARI) is not present. The oak leaves on the obverse are doubled, as shown in the scans. I am pretty sure this medal is a toy or a fake, but this would be the first I see in my life, therefore I need more information if possible. Originals of this medal are so cheap and available in quantity that I would be surprised to learn they are faked for profit. In addition to pictures of the "suspect" medal, I post scans of it between two standard originals, for comparison. Thanks for your support. Sergio Edited January 12, 2014 by rocketscientist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Hello Sergio, The medal that you have described, and posted pictures of, is not a fake but a french reproduction contemporary to the period. It was produced in the early 1930's timeframe by the french medal production house of M.Delande in Paris. They were a well known french medal manufacturer who were a prolific producer of medals from not just France but a wide variety of european countries. During the same timeframe they produced medals and decorations from countries that were involved in the Great War of 1914-1918. These decorations and medals were illustrated in a fantastic 1934 catalogue produced by the Delande firm showing all the varieties. It was commonplace for there to be die differences in these french made reproductions compared to the originals. The details that you showed in your pictures are consistent with a Delande manufactured piece and the file marks on the rim are also common in these pieces. I will post a picture of my Delande manufactured reproduction, which was obtained during the final close-down sale of stock from that manufacturer, and you will see the details are the same. I will also post the illustration and entry from the 1934 Delande catalogue for your reference. All in all you have a nice 1930's french produced reproduction of a nicely designed italian war commemorative medal. Regards, Rob Edited January 12, 2014 by RobW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 Here is the picture of my french produced example. Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Sergio, Here is a scan of the illustration from the 1934 Delande catalogue; page 95. Regards, Rob Edited January 12, 2014 by RobW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 And here is the scan of the accompanying description, from page 97. Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketscientist Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Rob, this is a great piece of information! Finally I am able to close a case that I'm trying to understand since I purchased this medal in 2007... in France! Frankly, I was totally unaware of foreign manufacturers of Italian Medals, I was more keen to imagine that this was an example of a small private production for veterans far after the end of WW1. This is a common case for WW2 Medals in Italy, mainly because of the transition from Kingdom to Republic that occurred immediately after. I do not know whether it was also the case in the twenties with the rise of the fascism. To know that this medal is (a)not a fake and (b)not issued in the last 10 years is really a relief, I'm happy and grateful that you could clarify once for ever this issue. Regards Sergio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketscientist Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Hi Rob, you just added your last two posts while I was writing mine. I am glad to get more and more information concerning this medal and, with your last post, why it could be manufactured in France. All this is just exciting... Thank you Sergio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 Hello Sergio, Happy to help where I can. Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketscientist Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 One last question, Rob! Do you know of any difference in the ribbon associated to this medal, worn by French veterans? The one coming with my medal has much lighter colours than a standard "italian" ribbon as you can see in the S.Johnson example I have posted for comparison. I just do not know (again!) whether the ribbon of the Delande medal is a bad repro or the correct one considering the specific agreement between italian and french governments concerning this award. Regards Sergio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 Sergio, As far as I have been able to identify the french medal manufacturers also produced the ribbons for the medals. I would suggest that maybe it is a french produced ribbon but don't have any further information than that. French ribbon that I have seen has different hues and colours than the original ribbons. My example did not have any ribbon attached to it. Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketscientist Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I think that a scan of the awarding document would be interesting in this thread. It says: "The Minister of War decrees the soldier <your name here> is authorized to bear the medal instituted in memory of the war MCMXV-MCMXVIII Rome, the day june 17th, 1921 The Minister Giulio Rodinò" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketscientist Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 My Lorioli's version of the Commemorative Medal for the War of 1915-1918, with two campaign bars: 1917 and 1918. No idea whether the bars are original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Hello rocketscientist, My Lorioli's version of the Commemorative Medal for the War of 1915-1918, with two campaign bars: 1917 and 1918. No idea whether the bars are original. There are quite a few different variations of these date bars. Some have been posted on this thread already but other variations continue to appear in the market. Given the large number of manufacturers of the medal it stands to reason that there would be a similar number of bar manufacturers. These bars were also produced, both officially and unofficially, for service in Albania. These are now becoming quite difficult to obtain. Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) To one and all, There is, at the moment, a small collection of 6 different varieties of the Commemorative Medal on ebay italy. The varieties are listed as: variante : S. Canevari / Mario Nelli variante : S. Canevari / Sacchini Milano variante : S. Canevari / C. M. [Lorioli-Castelli] variante : S. Canevari / S.J. (Johnson) variante : S. Canevari / S.I.M. Roma variante : S. Canevari Noting that the auction is still in progress, and not being too presumptive I will post the pics for general information. Regards, Rob Edited February 7, 2014 by RobW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 To all, Here are the obverses. Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 To all, Here are the reverses. Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobW Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 Hello Sergio, Do you know of any difference in the ribbon associated to this medal, worn by French veterans? The one coming with my medal has much lighter colours than a standard "italian" ribbon as you can see in the S.Johnson example I have posted for comparison. ... Regards Sergio You will notice on the most recent posts of the 6 varieties that there are a number of different shades of the ribbon. This is a good example of the ribbon varieties as well. I hope that this helps you in the identification of not only the medal varieties but also the ribbon varieties as well. Regards, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketscientist Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Thanks Rob, but I am not sure that all the posted medals have a period ribbon. Also my medals, or some of them, very likely have replacement ribbons. I have not spent enough time so far in studying ribbons, I am still not capable to recognise original one from new productions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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