Belgium HELP!

[Tim B]

Hey guys,

I finally got around to photographing some of the document grouping to a Belgian Sergeant Major in the 4th Regiment Chasseurs à Pied (Light Infantry). Obviously, I have several questions and would greatly appreciate any help here.

I'll post some of the documents as questions arise, vice posting all the documents at once and then trying to go back and forth. Honestly, the grouping is not just the service member's but, I also have documents for the wife and two sons. A lot of the paperwork is post-war stuff like marriage certificates, identity and benefit cards, pension booklet, passports, etc. To get an idea what I am up against, I'll post a couple of group PIC's. So not to bog down the process, I'll concentrate on just the war service record.

I am mostly interested in the entries in the member's Military Booklet (Livret Militaire) and on his Fire Card (Carte Du Feu).

Thanks in advance!

Tim

Edited May 4, 2010 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Another quick shot. It's a nice family document group overall, though I am really interested in the service member only.

Tim

[Tim B]

Okay, first up and hopefully an easy question; What does the term "AVEC GLAIVES" mean on the Leopold II certificate? I had assumed either crossed swords or possibly palms, but the translation does not cross to anything I can see.

This Officer's Grade Leopold II Order was presented in July 1963. I know he was a WWI veteran and had previously been issued both the Leopold II Medal as well as the Knights grade of the Leopold Order.

Tim

[Hendrik]

Hello Tim,

Officer Cross of the Order of Leopold II with swords ... the crossed swords device indicating the award is made for WWI service.

[Tim B]

Hello Hendrik!

Thank you and I figured it had to be this but the translation I kept getting for swords was "épées", so I was confused by it. Guess those online translations have limits!

Thank you again and on to the next question...

Below, is the man's Carte Du Feu. On the left, I see several entries that show periods of assignment (I assume time at the front) and what regiments he was assigned to during those times. My question revolves around the different entries.

1) Why would he have multiple listings for the same regiment assignment during various time frames if he remained in the same unit?

2) Was it done this way to identify how many bars he would be entitled to?

3) I only see entries up to August 1917, so if he was in from the start, I read that to mean he rated five silver (or 1 gold) bar on the Campaign Medal?

[Tim B]

Thought I better add a closer sharper PIC so everyone can see what I am talking about.

Circled in yellow is the assignment section I am asking the above questions on. I don't see any areas for additional assignments/comments, but I think he may have transferred after 1917. More on that later.

Tim

Edited May 4, 2010 by Tim B

[Tim B]

A center section close-up just for show. Got to love that mustache!! Bet he changed it after 1933. :whistle:

[Tim B]

While we're on the Fire Card, here's the right side and it brings up more questions.

Here, we see number of chevrons on top, though I can't make out what it says. And, the basic medals awarded during the war are listed that he was entitled to. I have to ask,

1) Why isn't the Croix Du Feu (Fire Cross) listed here?

2) How complete is this listing supposed to be? I ask as looking in the man's military booklet, there are more awards listed there.

Tim :cheers:

[Tim B]

Okay, no answers on the last questions, let's try a couple more. Here's a page out of the Livret Militaire that shows the member's various citations. You can see it has more entries than what is shown on the Carte Due Feu. Could be just a case of "when" the document came out and what medals had been authorized at that point. I do see the book lists the Yser award as the "Medaille", where the Fire Card listed it as the "Croix".

A few more questions (of course ):

1) Again, on the left side they show the "Chevrons" authorized. Not sure exactly what this refers to. Translating online: "Luit" comes up as shine or shown...???

2) On the right, under the Campaign, Combat, Decoration Cititation section; What is the top entry referring to? Appears to be a unit award to the 4th Regiment Chasseurs?

3) The seventh entry refers to the Leopold II medal, awarded for long service. What grade is it? Gold seems to the logical choice, but I can't tell.

Those are the main questions but, some minor questions for clairification.

4) What exactly is the Livret Militaire used for? I notice it lists some of the member's awards but, not all. Was there a cut-off date for recording in this book?

I believe the member joined the service in October, 1911 and eventually retired, though I am not sure exactly when at this point. He was awarded the Military Decoration, 2nd Class on 5 January 1924 for service, but at this point he would have had 13 years service and the 2nd class award is supposed to be awarded for 10 years service. Two more years and he should have also received the Military Decoration 1st Class (w/chevron) for 15 years service as an NCO, though there is no record of him receiving this level award. I assume he remained in the service but, he may have got out and later came back in and that may explain the extra three years.

Then on November 27th, 1926, he was awarded the Medaille of the Order of Leopold II

for long service. Not sure what grade (bronze/silver/gold) but, assume it's the gold level as he was already a Sergeant Major. Wikipedia states the following:

Gold Medal: Awarded after 20 years of meritorious service to a non-commissioned officer (9 years for non-commissioned officers member of the flying personnel), and after 25 years of service for a private or corporal;

Silver Medal: Awarded after 20 years of meritorious service for a private or corporal.

They don't discuss the bronze level.

Finally, he was awarded the Order of Leopold II, Knights Class in April 1937. This would place his service around 25 1/2 years if I did my math correctly. However, again, Wikipedia lists the following:

Knight: Awarded after 13 years of meritorious service to a commissioned officer, after 30 years of meritorious service for a non-commissioned officer (13 years for non-commissioned officers member of the flying personnel), and after 40 years of service for a private or corporal;

And, we know he was awarded the Officer's grade of the Leopold II in July, 1963 as shown in the earlier citation.

I am missing something here on the time requirements for these Leopold II awards, as it appears he was awarded some of these long service awards early or later than expected.

5) So, what do you guys familiar with the Belgian award system think here? I know, lot's of questions and I still have more.

Thanks again, but I figure by asking, I'm not alone in learning something new here.

Tim

[Tim B]

Here's a page of promotion dates. No questions relating to it...yet. :whistle:

[Tim B]

Here's his "history of assignments" and maybe this will help identify where and when he was on the front or reassigned.

I circled one entry that appears to say in the colonies. Overseas assignment?

It might also show if he got out and re-entered the service.

Thoughts?

Tim

[Tim B]

One thing of interest.

He was originally from Liège and, as assigned to the 4th Chasseurs à Pied, went back to defend the city in August 1914 when the Germans attacked the city and surrounding fortress. Of course, then he should have received that "unnofficial" medal as well, though there is no documention on it.

Looking at his assignments, you can see he started out in the 1st Regiment and then went to the 4th Regiment as war broke out. Here's some interesting information:

At the mobilization in August 1914, the 1st Regiment Chasseurs à Pied lay in garrison in Charleroi. From its ranks, the 4th Regiment was formed and both regiments formed the 15th Mixed Brigade. These regiments were the only units to exist during the whole war.

The 15th Brigade was sent on August 5 to Huy and Liège to reinforce the 3rd Army Division. The unit assembled on August 6, 1914 at Fragnée and marched in the direction of Brussels. The 4th Regiment took part in the fighting near the hamlet of ‘Lesson Communes’ and retreated over the Muese around 10 o’clock. The 1st Regiment succeeded in pushing back the German 43th Brigade at Sart-Tilman, in spite of heavy losses.

Both units became part of the Brigade N of the 3rd Army Division after the retreat from Liège. The two regiments took part in the attacks from Antwerp on August 24 and September 9, 1914.

On October 14, the Chasseurs Brigade defended the IJzer (Yser) river front from Schoorbakke to Tervate. During the battle in the sector Pervijze Kaaskerke it was kept in reserve. During the period of stabilization the regiments occupied different sectors of the front. They took part in the battle at Merkem on April 17, 1918.

1st Regiment Chasseurs à Pied was mentioned in dispatches and King Albert decorated the standard with the Léopold Order.

On January 30, 1918 both regiments formed together with the 14th Linieregiment, 9th Infantry Division. During the liberation offensive, the Chasseurs took Langemark, Poelkapelle, Westrozebeke, Oostnieuwkerke and Most. On October 4, 1918, they were at Roeselare. Between October 14 and October 20, 9th Division took part in the battles at Torhout and Tielt. The division progressed along Lotenhulle, Nevele, St-Martens-Leerne, Deurle, Bommelhoek and De Pinte and on November 11,1918 the division was in position on the left bank of the Schelde(Scheldt or Escaut)river from Zevergem to Eke.

The 1st and 4th Regiments Chasseurs à Pied won the citation: Liège – Antwerp – Ijzer – Merkem – Oostnieuwkerke

So, the guy saw more than his fair share of action. :beer:

[Hendrik]

1) Why would he have multiple listings for the same regiment assignment during various time frames if he remained in the same unit?

Never understood that myself. There are small breaks in service if you look at the dates. I'm assuming these are for longer periods of leave ...

2) Was it done this way to identify how many bars he would be entitled to?

No

3) I only see entries up to August 1917, so if he was in from the start, I read that to mean he rated five silver (or 1 gold) bar on the Campaign Medal?

Fact is he got 8 (huit = French for 8), the maximum awarded.

[Hendrik]

1) Why isn't the Croix Du Feu (Fire Cross) listed here?

Because the Fire Cross was not instituted till 1934, the fire card existed prior to that

2) How complete is this listing supposed to be? I ask as looking in the man's military booklet, there are more awards listed there.

Complete at the time of issue, shortly after the war's end ... later awards were not necessarily reproduced on the card.

[Hendrik]

1) Again, on the left side they show the "Chevrons" authorized. Not sure exactly what this refers to. Translating online: "Luit" comes up as shine or shown...???

Chevrons = front stripes, huit = eight

2) On the right, under the Campaign, Combat, Decoration Cititation section; What is the top entry referring to? Appears to be a unit award to the 4th Regiment Chasseurs?

It indicates participation in the "campaign of 1914-1917" ... i.e. WW I - nothing to do with a unit award

3) The seventh entry refers to the Leopold II medal, awarded for long service. What grade is it?

Entry reads Médaille d'or de l'Ordre ... i.e. Gold Medal of the Order ...

4) What exactly is the Livret Militaire used for? I notice it lists some of the member's awards but, not all. Was there a cut-off date for recording in this book?

Last entry seems to indicate his promotion to Adjutant in 1940. The "Livret Militaire" is a booklet a soldier is supposed to keep on his person at all times and is in fact a form of extensive identity card and listing promotions, awards, assignments and appointments, etc. It is not uncommon in European armies (cfr. German Wehrpass ...).

I believe the member joined the service in October, 1911 and eventually retired, though I am not sure exactly when at this point. He was awarded the Military Decoration, 2nd Class on 5 January 1924 for service, but at this point he would have had 13 years service and the 2nd class award is supposed to be awarded for 10 years service. Two more years and he should have also received the Military Decoration 1st Class (w/chevron) for 15 years service as an NCO, though there is no record of him receiving this level award. I assume he remained in the service but, he may have got out and later came back in and that may explain the extra three years.

He may not have served continuously in the army after the war's end ... the reference of his move to the colonies isn't 100 % clear in that respect or, it may just be a case of a late award.

Finally, he was awarded the Order of Leopold II, Knights Class in April 1937. This would place his service around 25 1/2 years if I did my math correctly.

And, we know he was awarded the Officer's grade of the Leopold II in July, 1963 as shown in the earlier citation.

I am missing something here on the time requirements for these Leopold II awards, as it appears he was awarded some of these long service awards early or later than expected.

Possibly some of the service time in the war and in the colonies counted double ... I'm not too familiar with that part of the rules and regulations but I think it is a distinct possibility.

[Tim B]

Fact is he got 8 (huit = French for 8), the maximum awarded. Would help if I only read things correctly, uh? I still get confused on the timelines. I assume the last period (qualifying bar) was only three months (Aug-Nov 1918)?

Because the Fire Cross was not instituted till 1934, the fire card existed prior to that.

Thanks, I was kind of thinking along those lines more today and makes total sense.

Complete at the time of issue, shortly after the war's end ... later awards were not necessarily reproduced on the card. Again, makes complete sense.

Many thanks again my friend.

Tim

[Tim B]

Hi Hendrik!

Thanks so much!! I see I am not too far off in my thinking but, you really cleared up some of the confusing parts. I kind of figured this Livert Militaire was similar to the German Wehrpass.

Okay, great so far.

Now, for some eye candy that came along with the grouping. More answers are welcome!!

Tim

[Hendrik]

Here's his "history of assignments" and maybe this will help identify where and when he was on the front or reassigned.

I circled one entry that appears to say in the colonies. Overseas assignment?

It might also show if he got out and re-entered the service.

Indeed, colonial service from 1917 till 1939 (rentré de la colonie = returned from the colony) but in Army Reserve, is how I read this page. The various "depot" references seem to indicate him having been put into the army reserves quite possibly - even quite likely in my view - because he took up an official position/occupation in the colony's administration. Is there anything in the other paperwork that can corroborate this ? He would as such have been entitled to some purely colonial awards too (service star, medal in a colonial order).

Edited May 5, 2010 by Hendrik

[Tim B]

Is there anything in the other paperwork that can corroborate this ? He would as such have been entitled to some purely colonial awards too (service star, medal in a colonial order).

Let me check more into his Livert Militaire. I also have some loose paperwork:

Cartouche De Conge (Verlopas)

Avis De Mutation (Bericht Van Overplastsing); Militares en Conge Illimite

[Tim B]

I can take a PIC tomorrow of the Relation Des Services page in the Livert Militaire. It appears to list his service entry date and some other service dates out to 9 November 1939.

Tim

[Tim B]

Some "eye candy" as promised. This appears to be an official "Program" for a January 1935 ceremony, honoring the soldiers that served at the front. I am assuming this took place in the city of Spa, Belgium; which is south of, and in the province of Liège.

I would imagine this type of ceremony took place in several locations throughout the country.

Tim

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[Tim B]

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[Tim B]

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[Tim B]

I also have (almost two complete sets) this pamphlet for the Croix De Feu. It really is only the cover, two pages of "trench art" and the back cover is just a small photo of somewhere on the front lines. I'll post the cover and trench art, didn't bother with the reverse cover.

Enjoy!! And again, I welcome all comments and again, a special thanks for the help Hendrik!

Tim

I added a medal to the PIC for S&G's.

[Tim B]

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