Belgium HELP!

[Tim B]

Pg. 3

[Tim B]

...and some trinkets thrown in, though I don't know if they were from the veteran.

Tim

[Tim B]

Adding some more tonight.

Here's the front cover of the Livert Militaire. Note, it's marked "duplicate", so I have no idea where the original is.

Tim

Edited May 7, 2010 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Here's the "Services" page and I circled the entry where I beleive it shows when he entered military service.

Tim

[Tim B]

The next two PIC's are of documents that I really don't have a clue on what they are. I thought perhaps they dealt with military leave, as the booklet has several pages for these entries and most are empty. The second PIC is loose papers of the same type items, so perhaps the member's "carry" copy?

Tim

[Tim B]

Colony related??? :speechless:

[Tim B]

Thought I would throw this into the fray. It's the membership card for Fraternelles De Armee de Campagne.

Tim

[Tim B]

A quick question possibly relating to the member's card above. I noted a cufflink/lapel pin to the National Federation of Combatants (Federation National des Combatants Belgique) which was posted above with all the other pins. It's the one with the green circle.

I assume the member might have been a member of this organization, though as stated earlier I am not sure the pins are original to the group, or if they were just tossed in by the seller. If he was a member, what would the qualifications be for him to have been awarded the Cross of the National Federation of Combatants, which was awarded by Belgian veterans association?

Tim

[Hendrik]

Militares en Conge Illimite

This confirms he was put in the Army Reserve ("military personnel on unlimited furlough").

[Hendrik]

...and some trinkets thrown in, though I don't know if they were from the veteran.

Tim

They are lapel badges referring to the Fire Cross ...

[Hendrik]

The next two PIC's are of documents that I really don't have a clue on what they are. I thought perhaps they dealt with military leave, as the booklet has several pages for these entries and most are empty. The second PIC is loose papers of the same type items, so perhaps the member's "carry" copy?

Tim

these documents refer to the "unlimited furlough" and assigment to a reserve unit

[Hendrik]

A quick question possibly relating to the member's card above. I noted a cufflink/lapel pin to the National Federation of Combatants (Federation National des Combatants Belgique) which was posted above with all the other pins. It's the one with the green circle.

I assume the member might have been a member of this organization, though as stated earlier I am not sure the pins are original to the group, or if they were just tossed in by the seller. If he was a member, what would the qualifications be for him to have been awarded the Cross of the National Federation of Combatants, which was awarded by Belgian veterans association?

Tim

Don't know exactly but usually it means a number of years of membership (i.e. paying the yearly contribution ...)

[Tim B]

Thanks again Hendrik!

Tim

[Tim B]

Still looking through the paperwork. I believe his wife and at least one son also have the colony paperwork. She has a couple certs and awards for civil service as well.

So, long service award wise, the Sergeant Major would have been wearing at least these decorations below. I assumed he would have had the 1st Class Military Decoration as well, but I wonder if the broken active service might have negated it, or if because he was awarded the Gold Medaille de Leopold II, it was considered higher and precluded him from being awarded the lower award?

Tim

Edited May 7, 2010 by Tim B

[Tim B]

And my best guess at what he would have been entitled to for service based on his Military Booklet. There may have been more and of course the Liege medal is not for sure but, IMO, a given as he was there defending the city on 5 August according to the 4th Regiment records.

Tim

[Tim B]

Well, lots of lookers but not many comments. Anyone else want to add their thoughts/knowledge to this group? Comments are welcome.

Hendrik,

Many thanks for all the help and time on this! I always appreciate your knowledge base on these items as I would be lost without much of it. Thank you sir!

Tim

[Tim B]

I still have some questions centering around the Gold Medaille de Order of Leopold II that this guy was awarded. Here's the official award criteria for military personnel:

The Order of Leopold II is awarded to military personnel on the basis of their length of service, with the years of training counting for half:

- Grand Officer: Awarded after 35 years of meritorious service to a flag officer with minimum rank of Major-General;

- Commander: Awarded after 30 years of meritorious service to a commissioned officer with minimum rank of Lieutenant-Colonel;

- Officer: Awarded after 23 years of meritorious service to a commissioned officer with minimum rank of Lieutenant;

- Knight: Awarded after 13 years of meritorious service to a commissioned officer, after 30 years of meritorious service for a non-commissioned officer (13 years for non-commissioned officers member of the flying personnel), and after 40 years of service for a private or corporal;

- Gold Medal: Awarded after 20 years of meritorious service to a non-commissioned officer (9 years for non-commissioned officers member of the flying personnel), and after 25 years of service for a private or corporal;

- Silver Medal: Awarded after 20 years of meritorious service for a private or corporal.

First Question:

I note that the Bronze Medal is not mentioned and wanted to know if the bronze level of award was only for civilians?

Regards,

Tim

[Tim B]

I also see that the Order of Leopold II is sometimes awarded to military personnel not meeting the conditions above when they have performed especially meritorious services to the King that do not deserve a special award of the Order of Leopold. An example of this would be an appointment as an Adjutant.

Adjutant is a military rank or appointment. In some armies it is an officer who assists a more senior officer, while in other armies it is an NCO (non-commissioned officer), normally corresponding roughly to a Commonwealth Staff Sergeant or Warrant Officer.

In various uniformed hierarchies, the term is used for number of functions, but generally as a principal aide to a commanding officer.

A Regimental Adjutant, Garrison Adjutant etc. is a staff officer, who assists the commanding officer of a

regiment, battalion or garrison in the details of regimental, garrison or similar duty.

Non-Commissioned rank

In some armies, Adjutant is a rank similar to a commonwealth Staff Sergeant or Warrant Officer.

In the Belgian Army, the ranks are Adjudant, Adjudant-Chef and Adjudant-Major (or Adjudant-Majoor in Dutch language). In Dutch, they are collectively known as Keuronderofficier ("elite NCOs").

We know this guy was eventually assigned as an Adjutant, so...my next questions;

First, could his assignment as "adjutant" possibly explain his early award of the Gold Medaille de Order of Leopold II?

Second, would it also have anything to do with his award of the Officer grade of the Leopold II later on?

Enough for now.

Tim

[Tim B]

Just wanted to add that his wife was awarded the Gold Medal of the Order of the Crown in 1972 for service in the workforce.

No other comments?

Tim

[Vatjan]

The military established a time-scheme for every regiment, for the periods they were actually active at the front.

This is why the time-line isn't continuous on the firecard.

For soldiers who never left the regiment this was not very important because they received full rights to the chevrons and the firecard.

However for soldiers who changed regiment,this was important because they had to have at least 12 months of frontduty to get the firecard.

This was calculated following the regimental time scheme.

Alternatively, if they were present during all the offensive actions of the regiments they served in they would also receive the firecard even if they did not spent the full 12 months on frontduty.

Soldiers wounded at the front received the firecard, even if they spent only 1 day there.

Hope this is more or less clear

Jan

Edited May 20, 2010 by Vatjan

[Vatjan]

The firecard always mentions Ysercross, because the card was installed after the regulations had changed, converting the Ysermedal to the Ysercross.

So the medal did not officially exist anymore.

You will however usually find the Ysermedal in a medalgroup because most veterans refused to pay for the new Ysercross.

Jan

Edited May 20, 2010 by Vatjan

[Tim B]

Jan,

Many thanks for posting this information! I am trying to get as much of the details correct here, not only for this group, but also for knowledge on any future items I may get or help others on. Again, many thanks!!

Tim

[Vatjan]

While we're on the Fire Card, here's the right side and it brings up more questions.

Here, we see number of chevrons on top, though I can't make out what it says. And, the basic medals awarded during the war are listed that he was entitled to. I have to ask,

1) Why isn't the Croix Du Feu (Fire Cross) listed here?

2) How complete is this listing supposed to be? I ask as looking in the man's military booklet, there are more awards listed there.

Tim

I think Hendrik has replied to this already, but anyway...

1) the firecross was only installed 2 years after the firecard, following a demand of the veterans for a medal rather than a card to prove their front duty.

You have to know that following the war, the Belgian Government gave in to requests by different pressuregroups, of for exemple civil intelligence services, nurses, philanthropists and the like, and started awarding the war cross more liberally.

This had as a result that one could no longer distinguish frontfighters from other patriots by just looking at their medalgroup. The veterans revolted against this and were given the firecard, not 100% satisfied they continued to put pressure on the government and were finally awarded the fire cross.

2) On the firecard you can only find the awards the veteran was given for warservice.

No longservice awards or other are found on the firecard.

[Vatjan]

Still looking through the paperwork. I believe his wife and at least one son also have the colony paperwork. She has a couple certs and awards for civil service as well.

So, long service award wise, the Sergeant Major would have been wearing at least these decorations below. I assumed he would have had the 1st Class Military Decoration as well, but I wonder if the broken active service might have negated it, or if because he was awarded the Gold Medaille de Leopold II, it was considered higher and precluded him from being awarded the lower award?

Tim

The Knight of the order of LII would have to be one without swords, and is probably a long service award.

The swords were only installed in 1939 and were meant to be a token of appreciation of the Government towards the veterans.

Every 10 years the veterans would receive a promotion in the national orders in recognition of their war service.

These promotions were indicated by the application of swords on the ribbon of the order.

They would first receive a knight LII, then knight Order of the Crown, then knight L1, the officer LII and so on.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Vatjan

[Tim B]

Hi Jan,

So, then by rights, he would have probably also has the Knights Class Order of the Crown sometime around the mid-40's and then the Knights Class of the Order of Leopold (I), probably in the mid-50's? I don't see or have anything supporting this document-wise, but according to the award hierarchy, it would make sense and explain why he received the Officer Class of the Order of Leopold II in the 60's.

Many thanks!!

Tim