France Legion D'Honneur Questions

[Streptile]

Hello gentlemen,

I have a special interest in collecting awards and decorations from the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871, but until now my collection has been limited to Prussian awards (EKs, KDMs, etc).

I am looking into adding a Legion D'Honneur Knight's Cross, and have discovered after a brief survey in some of my reference books and on the internet, that there are many different versions of this storied award.

Can I please ask your help with some preliminary questions:

1) Which type was awarded during the first (Imperial) phase of the war?

2) Which type was awarded during the second (Republican) phase of the war?

3) Since this was not a strictly military decoration, how can wartime examples be distinguished from pre-war or post-war examples (if this is possible)?

To start with I am hoping to find an example from the Imperial phase of the war. Any thoughts on the originality and period of manufacture of the illustrated piece (which I am thinking of possibly buying) will also be very welcome.

[Streptile]

Any help would be very appreciated!

Thank you,

Trevor

[Streptile]

Any help would be very appreciated!

Thank you,

Trevor

Let me rephrase my question...

Some decorations -- famously, in the German states, added swords to denote an award for combat. Was there anything akin to that with the LoH? Or any maker marks or traits of manufacture that would allow one to determine if it was a wartime-made piece?

If it is not possible to distinguish a wartime (July 1870 - September 1870) 2nd Empire LoH from a prewar LoH, and someone knows that it is not, please just let me know and put me out my misery!

[Tim B]

Hi Trevor,

Well, the cone of silence has fallen on you I see.

As far as I know, I do not believe there were any distingushing differences in the Legion of Honor, whether or not it was awarded for valor or peactime service.

The example you show is a rather nice example, condition wise, and IMO would jump on it if the price was good for you.

I am sorry I cannot answer more of your questions but, HOPEFULLY someone else more knowledgeable will. I know Bison was helping me out a lot on these 3rd Republic pieces, but I haven't heard from him for sometime now, so he may be out or on holiday(?).

Good luck!

Tim

[TacHel]

Tim is correct, no diff peace or war time issues.

As for your question on the Franco-Prussian war, I will ask colleagues who know more than I do on the subject. I've personally checked and cannot find an exact date when the model changed from the 2nd Empire to the 3rd Republic model. I'll get back to you when I receive a more definite answer.

[Streptile]

Tim is correct, no diff peace or war time issues.

As for your question on the Franco-Prussian war, I will ask colleagues who know more than I do on the subject. I've personally checked and cannot find an exact date when the model changed from the 2nd Empire to the 3rd Republic model. I'll get back to you when I receive a more definite answer.

Thanks Tim and François!

It's interesting -- I posed this question in four different forums, and no one has yet hazarded an answer (even on the French forum).

As for when the L d'H switched over from the 2nd Empire to the 3rd Republic model, I would suppose right after Napoleon surrendered and the Empire collapsed -- the first few days of September, after Sedan.

So, now I have some more questions

1) Did 2nd Emprire L d'H Knight's Crosses come in gold, as well as in silver gilt? Basically, I want to pick up one single example of a 2nd Empire L d'H, and I'd like it to be the finest quality available.

2) Are there any "premiere" makers, as there are (to choose an example I'm familiar with) with 1914 Iron Crosses? Specific makers, identifiable by design traits or marks, that are thought to have made the finest examples? I'm interested in anyone's opinions.

My very sincere thanks for your replies, fellows.

Trevor

.

[TacHel]

French awards come in all forms, shapes, metals, sizes due to the fact anybody can produce them... In the 2nd Empire, jewelers produced gold examples of stunning beauty, some even added small diamonds. The more money you had, the nicer your LoH and other awards could look. The sky's the limit here... Premiere makers? Not to my knowledge but others might know of a few names. Keep in mind though that examples of such high quality will probably require you to re mortgage your house...

[Streptile]

Keep in mind though that examples of such high quality will probably require you to re mortgage your house...

Hey François,

Great information, thank you! Seeing as how I don't own a house, I guess I'd better look for one without diamonds

Well, I am on the hunt for a good, affordable L d'H from the 2nd Empire.

As a side note, I see that some dealers refer to 2nd Empire pieces as "Crimea Period." I know what they mean -- but there's nothing really to indicate that it's specifically from the "Crimea Period" as opposed to, say, 1870, right?

[TacHel]

...but there's nothing really to indicate that it's specifically from the "Crimea Period" as opposed to, say, 1870, right?

No, not really... Any LoH not made by the Paris mint can rarely be pinned down to anything other than simply "2nd Empire".

As for official Paris mint models, I'm not 100% positive how many types/variations existed (if any) during the 2nd Empire. And even if such slightly varying types did exist, existing stocks would be used prior to the award of new pieces so heh...

[TacHel]

This is my 2nd Empire LoH, and Officer's badge. It is of gilded silver. Unfortunately, much of the gilding is gone and the ribbon isn't original. But I still love it!

I paid just under 700 EURO for it years ago but have seen prices drop a bit lately. You could probably find an officer's badge for less than 600 EURO and in better shape than mine nowadays.

[Streptile]

This is my 2nd Empire LoH, and Officer's badge. ... I still love it!

I love it too!

Thank you very much for showing this one, François. So (naturally) you have raised more questions in my mind...

I have been looking at "Knight's Crosses." Is that what you show? I don't think so, since the price you quote is above what I've seen Knight's Crosses listed for. Can you explain what "Officer's Badge" means, please? Or a quick summary of the basic grades?

You could probably find an officer's badge for less than 600 EURO and in better shape than mine nowadays.

How can you tell if it's from the Paris Mint? I think that's what I want -- the basic, awarded version.

I field questions from Iron Cross collectors every day (Do you know where I can find a good 65? Is this real? How much should I pay for this? Is this mark the 1st or 2nd type? What core variation is this? What does it mean to have a non-magnetic center? Is my ribbon original? Do you have a L/18 for sale? Is this pin repaired? Have you seen a good W&L EK2 for sale recently? etc., etc.). So now I need some help ...

If you see a good one for sale anywhere like yours, please don't hesitate to let me know.

[TacHel]

I'm talking about the degrees within the Order, they are different than British.

Lowest is "Chevalier" (Knight of the Order), 40mm silver breast badge with plain ribbon,

then "Officier" (Officer or the Order), 40mm gilt breast badge with a rosette on the ribbon,

then "Commandeur" (Commander), 60mm gilt badge and worn around the neck,

then "Grand-Officier" (Grand-Officer), large silver breast cross.

and finally "Grand-Croix" (Grand-Cross), large gilt breat cross and sash.

You can see it at this link: http://en.wikipedia....ion_d%27honneur

Addenda: Paris mint examples will have a mint mark. Look at the thread on makers' marks in this same forum (France), you'll see what it looks like and where to find it.

Edited August 1, 2010 by TacHel

[Tim B]

Hi Trevor,

Here's a consolidated PIC of my 3rd republic LoH's. Note the "Officer" grade on the top row (rosette on the suspension ribbon) and the pieces are usually gold, gilted silver, or bronze. As Frank stated, the sky is the limit on what the wearer wanted and was willing to spend.

The bottom row is the Chevalier or Knights Class and is usually in silver or a cheaper silver colored metal. No rosette on the ribbon.

Tim

[Tim B]

Trevor,

As far as any premiere makers go, I think several maker's produced a variety of decorations in various levels of quality and ornate details. That way they could market to any level or customer request.

Talking 3rd Republic pieces, as thats all I have at this point, you have the plain "Janes" as well as the deluxe or so-called "luxury" models with the berries. If you look at the PIC I showed above, you can see the differences right away. Each has it's own merits IMO.

Here's a link to the thread Bison and myself had started on maker's marks and it needs to continue. Not sure if Bison is taking a break or on vacation, but you can see some of the various markings we have shown already, including a variety of Paris Mint (Monnaie de Paris) marks. Please feel free to add to it and I hope others will as well. Here: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=44224

Looking forward to seeing and learning more on the 2nd Empire pieces.

Tim

[Streptile]

Here's a link to the thread Bison and myself had started on maker's marks

Tim, that's a great link. I hope to be able to contribute to it soon. I think I've seen all the examples you show above in your WAF thread, but it sure is nice to see them all together .

This really is a beautiful award, isn't it?

François, again, thank you for the explanation of levels. Funny, I never thought to look on Wikipedia.

I've now looked at probably two dozen examples of 2nd Empire Ld'H's on various dealer's sites. I notice that they differ in design particulars and quality so much more than (for example) Prussian awards from the same period. The varieties are mind-boggling.

Among all the pieces I've looked at -- and for the moment I'm just talking about Knight's Crosses (Chevalier) -- there was one single example that had a rather substantial (it seems to me) variance. Almost all the crowns (and boy are there a lot of different crown shapes) are surrounded by eagles, like this:

But this one had something completely different -- leaves of some sort:

Is this a standard, acceptable difference? Or do these leaves mean something specific?

Finally, let me say one last time that I really appreciate your help, gentlemen. I have found websites dealing with the Ld'H, it's true. But the real minutiae that concerns us as collectors? You just don't find that information there. It's just other collectors who can supply it. So, thank you.

Trevor

Edited August 2, 2010 by Streptile

[Djedj]

Hi Trevor,

Your question is a difficult one, re. when the Medal model changed from "Empire" to "Republic".

Here is an interesting portrait showing Capitaine François Guérinat (7e Hussards) c. 1873 :

The close up on his medals show an "Empire" model :

Guérinat (then a Lieutenant in the 7e Hussards) was provisionally made a Chevalier of the Légion d'honneur "par arrêté de M. le Mal de France Commandant en chef l'Armée du Rhin" (so by Bazaine, while Guérinat was among the French Army encircled in Metz), on 9th September 1870 - after Sedan, and after the Republic was proclaimed on September 4th.

This nomination would be confirmed by a Décret of the "Grande Chancellerie de la Légion d'honneur" dated 31 May 1871, and he was officially decorated in front of the Regiment by his Colonel on 25 April 1872.

So as you can see, this took some time.

There's no way the depicted medal would have been handed out in 1872 - though the photo is definitely a later one, as Guérinat was promoted to the rank of Capitaine on 3rd November 1872.

So why the Imperial Medal ?

It is very likely that it was handed out to him under Metz when he was "provisionnally" nominated (Guérinat had been wounded on 31 August, while he was leading the escort of Général Grenier at Servigny).

Of course no "Republican" model would have been available by then, esp. for the Army encircled under Metz.

And it is almost certain that one of his fellow officers would have handed out a medal to go along the nomination (one must remember that there were duplicates around - such a phenomenum is widely documented for awards handed out during a Campaign).

Why would he keep on wearing that medal after officially receiving another one ?

Very possibly a political stance - or the affection for the medal acually received during the operations - We will never know !

But as you can see, even if you come up upon the regulations defining the change dates, there will be many exceptions to that rule.

As a side note, that delay between decoration confirmation and official Medal distribution is something I have observed in other similar cases.

(e.g., Sous-lieutenant Xavier Feuillant, made a Chevalier on 28th February 1871, received his medal on 31st December 1871).

Quite easy to understand when remembering the internal turmoil of the times - and that the Légion d'honneur buildings were burnt during the Paris Commune !

Salutations,

Jérôme

Edited August 2, 2010 by Djedj

[Streptile]

Merci bien, Jérôme.

Even as I wrote in my post that the change from the 2nd Empire style to the 3rd Republic style must have happened immediately after Sedan, I realized that it could not have been so easy. Of course the nation was more concerned with instituting a government that could continue the war an expel the Prussians. Designing (and especially manufacturing) a new Ld'H was probably not the highest priority for them.

Thank you very much for taking the time to post the interesting photo and story of Capitaine François Guérinat. It has me wondering -- do you think it's possible that there were no actual awards made of the 3rd Republic type Ld'H during the war? That -- given the problems the Government of National Defense was facing -- they did not even commission the new design until after the war was over and the Commune crushed?

Another way of asking this question is: are there any well-documented and believable groups from the Franco-Prussian war which contain a 3rd Republic type awarded before the end of the fighting?

By the way, I bought the piece shown in the first post here, and I have my eye on a nice Officer's Badge, so thank you Tim and François for your help on that front. I will post some better photos when it arrives from overseas.

Finally, any thoughts about the question I raised regarding the crown?

[TacHel]

I've asked a friend in France to look into it (time between decree and actual bestowal of 3rd Rep LoH), but since he's also a member of these forums, he might just drop into the conversation.

My take on the weird crown with the leaves... A LoH from the "2nd restoration" period, King Henry IV (1815-1830). If it has Napoleon in the center, then I submit the center medallion was replaced, not at all uncommon.

By the way Djedj... AWESOME pic!! With a GREAT history! Thanks for sharing, I eat this stuff up!

[Streptile]

My take on the weird crown with the leaves... A LoH from the "2nd restoration" period, King Henry IV (1815-1830). If it has Napoleon in the center, then I submit the center medallion was replaced, not at all uncommon.

Hi François,

I'm sure you are right -- after reading your post, I checked. The leaves are the default device for the 2nd Restoration pieces. That one I showed does have Napoleon III in the center.

What does it mean when a dealer writes "Cent Gardes"? The pieces look to my untrained eye basically like 2nd Empire pieces but are about 5 times more expensive. (I assume it refers to the Cent Gardes of Napoleon III, but what is the difference in the piece?)

Trevor

Edited August 3, 2010 by Streptile

[TacHel]

The "Cent Gardes" translates into "100 guards".

It was an elite cavalry unit created in 1854 (HQ and 2 companies) directly attached to the person of the Emperor yet not part of the Imperial Guard. They accompanied him during the Italian campaign of 1859 and received an especially made version of that campaign medal (with the imperial crown). They also accompanied him to Metz and Sedan in 1870. The unit was disbanded by decree in 1870 and merged into the 2nd Cuirassiers regiment.

I must also tell you that the crown with the leaves might have been correct if the LoH is from the 1st Empire period... Only an inspection of the entire award would tell. We having fun yet?:rolleyes:

[Streptile]

We having fun yet?

I sure am

So what makes a Ld'H a "cent gardes" edition? As you can see in my post above, the dealer has labeled this Ld'H a "cent gardes" version and has priced it at £700 or thereabouts, as compared to £200 or so for a "regular" 2nd Empire Chevalier grade cross. Is there something different about it? All I can really see right away is that the crown is different -- but they all are, one from the next -- and that the central medallion has no radiating lines behind the Emperor's head. Am I missing something? Or is it just dealer B.S.?

I must also tell you that the crown with the leaves might have been correct if the LoH is from the 1st Empire period... Only an inspection of the entire award would tell.

Then let's do it:

(Let me know if you need the reverse)

By the way, is there a good book on the Ld'H? I mean, for collectors. Discussion of makers and variants, types and materials, that kind of thing. Apart from you good folks, I've found it very difficult to get this kind of super-specific information anywhere.

[Djedj]

It has me wondering -- do you think it's possible that there were no actual awards made of the 3rd Republic type Ld'H during the war? That -- given the problems the Government of National Defense was facing -- they did not even commission the new design until after the war was over and the Commune crushed?

Bonjour,

I think that's actually stretching it a little too far - by any account, the early Republic was quite prodigal with awards, and one must not discount the fact that many jewellers were probably quite happy to provide their customers with the much coveted distinction.

As for the date, a little digging and the Decret popped up, dated 8 November 1870 :

"Le Gouvernement de la défense nationale.

Vu la loi du 29 floréal an X, portant création de la Légion d'honneur,

El le décret du 2 messidor an XII, déterminant la forme de la décoration des membres de l'ordre:

Vu la proclamation du 4 septembre 1870 au peuple français;

Vu le décret du Gouvernement de la défense nationale du 28 octobre 1870;

Considérant qu'il importe de mettre la dite décoration en harmonie avec les principes du gouvernement républicain :

Sur la proposition du grand chancelier de l'ordre national de la Légion d'honneur.

DÉCRÈTE :

Art. 1er. La décoration de la Légion d'honneur sera modifiée ainsi qu'il suit :

La couronne qui surmonte l'étoile sera supprimée et remplacée par une couronne de chêne et de laurier.

Le centre de l'étoile présentera, d'un côté, la tête de la République avec cet exergue : République française, 1870;

et de l'autre, les drapeaux tricolores, avec cet exergue: Honneur et Patrie.

La plaque de grand officier et de grand'croix portera au centre la République, et en exergue : République française, 1870. Honneur et patrie.

Art. 2. Le grand-chancelier de l'ordre national de la Légion d'honneur est chargé de l'exécution du présent décret.

Paris, le 8 novembre 1870.

Le Gouvernement de la défense nationale,

Vu les décrets du 22 janvier et du 29 février 1852 sur l'institution et la forme de la médaille militaire,

Et la proclamation du 4 septembre 1870 au peuple français:

Considérant qu'il importe de mettre la dite médaille en harmonie avec les principes du gouvernement républicain ;

Sur la proposition du grand chancelier de l'ordre national de la Légion d'honneur.

DÉCRÈTE :

Art. 1er. La médaille militaire sera en argent et d'un diamètre de 28 millimètres.

Elle portera, d'un côté, la tête de la République, avec cet exergue: République française, 1870; et de l'autre, au centre du médaillon: Valeur et Discipline.

L'aigle qui surmonte la médaille sera supprimée et remplacée par un trophée d'armes.

Art. 2. Le grand-chancelier de l'ordre national de la Légion d'honneur est chargé de l'exécution du présent décret.

Paris, le 8 novembre 1870"

Two Decrees were published same day, changing the aspects of both Légion d'honneur and Médaille Militaire, doing away with crowns and Imperial symbols.

This concomittance is interesting - it reminds us that there is a "Médaille Militaire" model know as "Modèle de Versailles", said to have been issued in 1871.

This model is notable by the fact that it is made in one bloc (no hinge or ring between the trophy and the "jeton")

Samples can be found here :

http://www.la-phalere.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=169:nd2171-medaille-militaire-monobloc-&catid=86:medaille-militaire&Itemid=54

http://www.la-phalere.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=87:nd2126-medaille-militaire-monobloc&catid=86:medaille-militaire&Itemid=54

Note that the 28 October 1870 Decree that is alluded to above in the first Decree, did state that the Légion d'honneur would from now on only be awarded for military purposes - a massive change from its original statutes. That one would not survive long, and the award would soon enough regain its universal scope.

Upon the debate re. surviving Imperial Models, I found an interesting snippet in a 1895 article in the "Spectateur Militaire" :

"Après la chute de Napoléon III, beaucoup d'officiers ont affecté de continuer à porter la décoration de la Légion d'honneur aux emblèmes impériaux, même lorsqu'ils l'avaient reçue du Gouvernement de la troisième République, et ces manifestations hostiles contre les institutions légales de la France ont duré et on été acceptées en toute impunité ou même avec encouragement pendant dix années, de 1870 à 1879.

Mais dès que l'on eut un Président de la République respectueux du régime gouvernemental du pays et un Ministre de la guerre animé des mêmes sentiments vis-à-vis de la nation, cet état d'hostilité et de manifestation cessa. M. Farre força tout le monde à se conformer au décret du 8 novembre 1870."

Which translates as :

"After the fall of Napoléon III, many officers affected to keep on wearing the Légion d'honneur medal with imperial emblems, even when thet had received it from the Third Republic Government, and those hostile demonstrations against the legal institutions of France lasted and were accepted with complete impunity or even with encouragement during ten years, from 1870 till 1879.

But as soon as we had a President of the Republic respectful of the country's regime and a Minister of war with the same feelings towards the nation, this state of hostility and demonstration stopped. Mr Farre forced everyone to conform to the 8 November 1870 decree."

Salutations,

Jérôme

[Streptile]

Salut Jérôme!

Thank you so much for finding, and posting, this fascinating information. It is precisely the kind of thing I was hoping to read.

The snippet from the article that you quoted last could also help explain the case of Capitaine François Guérinat, of course:

...many officers affected to keep on wearing the Légion d'honneur medal with imperial emblems...

All things considered, it is quite interesting to me that this decree was promulgated a scant two months into the life if the

Government of National Defense.

I found the forum was down on both occasions I tried to post yesterday, or I would have posted my Ld'H earlier:

While I am interested in an Officer Badge, I decided to start with a Chevalier, as you can see. It is the same one shown in the fist post.

Again, thanks to everyone who has contributed so far to helping me learn.

Trevor

PS: Anyone have thoughts about this question?

So what makes a Ld'H a "cent gardes" edition? As you can see in my post above, the dealer has labeled this Ld'H a "cent gardes"

version ...is it just dealer B.S.?