Mervyn Mitton Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 The Germans used many different patterns for dress bayonets and this is a nice example for a 1930's Police dress bayonet. Chrome fittings and blade and with good stag horn grips. Well marked with maker's name - and , very importantly , matching numbers on cross guard and scabbard. Strangely, many examples were never fitted with attachments for a rifle - and must have been worn like a dress dagger. This one has full rifle fittings. Good examples of this bayonet are not easy to find - especially in this condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 17, 2010 Author Share Posted August 17, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 17, 2010 Author Share Posted August 17, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 17, 2010 Author Share Posted August 17, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 17, 2010 Author Share Posted August 17, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 17, 2010 Author Share Posted August 17, 2010 Could SCH stand for Police School - what we would call a college or, academy ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeW Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 The design of your bayonet (with eagle head pommel, horn grip plates and leather scabbard) originated for the Prussian police in 1929. Those style bayonets are by far the most found by collectors as the Prussian police force was by far the largest in Germany. The Prussian design bayonet was chosen by the Nazis as the design for their nationalized police in 1936. The Prussian police produced two hilt designs: with bayonet attachment and without. Those bayonets produced with bayonet attachment fittings were issued to members of the Schutzpolizei Bereitschaften (Protection Police Riot/Emergency Companies) while the other style were issued to all other members of the Schutzpolizei, the Landjagerei (rural police using brown color leather scabbards) and the Gemeindepolizei (using black color leather scabbards like the Schutzpolizei). After 1936, the Prussian style was adopted for police in all the Laender of Germany with the III Reich police insignia being installed on the grips. In 1938/39 the original long style Prussian bayonets were supposed to be shortened with the famous clamshell removed. This was not always accomplished. This style of bayonet was continued in production until 1940/41. This was always considered a standard service issue bayonet and was worn on duty and for special occasions by the Prussians. After the Nazi conversions, police parade regulations stipulated that the S.84/98 bayonet was to be worn, not this service bayonet. Here are examples of the three lengths of Prussian/Nazi conversion bayonets that can be encountered by collectors: the unshortened variation on the left, the standard shortened police bayonet and the shorter private purchase (Extra) side arm authorized for "Walking Out Dress"-off duty. Note that all still retain their distinctive clam shells that were ordered removed by police authorities, but apparently escaped the police armorers. I don't recognize off hand the markings on your bayonet. I cannot find it listed in the standard lexicon of Prussian Police markings issued in 1932. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest IMHF Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 (edited) Very nice collection, did they ever make any Ivory Handles for these daggers?? Lorenzo Edited August 17, 2010 by IMHF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jocktamson Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 Beautiful Bayonet Mervyn, my father had one of these many moons ago and in a very similar condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 17, 2010 Author Share Posted August 17, 2010 Thankyou for comments and information. Joe - your background on this bayonet will be of interest to Police collectors in addition to the edged weapon theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeW Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 Very nice collection, did they ever make any Ivory Handles for these daggers?? Lorenzo Ivory was never specified in the service regulations, nor shown in any period catalogs showing "Extra" bayonets for private purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 Could SCH stand for Police School - what we would call a college or, academy ? Mervyn, Markings on one of these bayonets would not be common. I don't think they would have been stamped in such a sloppy manner were they stamped by an armourer or the like. As has been said previously SCH. P. is not something that can be found among Polizei markings. It doesn't makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeW Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 Mervyn, I would be interested in knowing if your bayonet is Prussian in origin, or of III Reich vintage. Can you see any markings on the narrow spine of the blade at the cross-guard? The marking would be something like *k. That same marking would be on the lower scabbard fitting. That mark is the acceptance mark of the Prussian Police Beschaffungsamt (Procurement Depot) and is often found on these police bayonets with III Reich insignia on the grip plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 30, 2010 Author Share Posted August 30, 2010 Joe - I have had a photo taken of the mark on the spine. Not terribly clear and on one shot I thought I could see a '7' - which might be part of a 'K' ? Anyway, this shot seems to show it as a sunburst - see what you think ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeW Posted August 30, 2010 Share Posted August 30, 2010 (edited) Joe - I have had a photo taken of the mark on the spine. Not terribly clear and on one shot I thought I could see a '7' - which might be part of a 'K' ? Anyway, this shot seems to show it as a sunburst - see what you think ? That sure is the *K acceptance mark of the Prussian police Mervyn. Yours is one of the reworked M1929 Prussian police Seitengewehrs. What is the blade length and total length of the bayonet. Does the scabbard have the *K marking on the back of the lower fitting? And what is its length? Thanks for this info. Edited August 30, 2010 by JoeW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted August 31, 2010 Author Share Posted August 31, 2010 Joe - the overall length is 18.5 inches (48.5cm). Scabbard length is just under 15 inches (37cm) and the length of the blade is just under 13 inches (32cm). Thankyou for your interest in this piece and I look forward to your final conclusions. Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeW Posted September 2, 2010 Share Posted September 2, 2010 Joe - the overall length is 18.5 inches (48.5cm). Scabbard length is just under 15 inches (37cm) and the length of the blade is just under 13 inches (32cm). Thankyou for your interest in this piece and I look forward to your final conclusions. Mervyn Mervyn, the dimensions of your bayonet are identical to my example of a converted M1929 with bayonet device. The acceptance markings are identical too. The only thing I do not understand is the markings on the crossguard and the upper scabbard fittings. These markings to not conform to the official 1932 Prussian police marking requirements. Either the markings were period made in ignorance of the official directives, or the markings are not original to the piece. The photo of the scabbard markings are a difficult to see actually as the scabbard is at an angle. So I can't comment on them. But in my opinion, the crossguard markings make no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted September 5, 2010 Author Share Posted September 5, 2010 Joe - thankyou for taking the time and trouble to give accurate info. on this bayonet. To sum-up, am I correct in saying it is a 1929 Prussian Police pattern - officially modified in length and with the shell ornamentation removed from the cross guard ? With regard to the stamped impressions on the cross guard and the scabbard - I don't think they are important. Whenever - and by whomever - they are obviously quite genuine. During wartime quality can easily deteriorate and how do we know that the bayonet wasn't issued to one of the many satellite countries the Germans set-up. I hope we can find some more items for you to tell us about - meanwhile, post some of your other ones. Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeW Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 Joe - thankyou for taking the time and trouble to give accurate info. on this bayonet. To sum-up, am I correct in saying it is a 1929 Prussian Police pattern - officially modified in length and with the shell ornamentation removed from the cross guard ? With regard to the stamped impressions on the cross guard and the scabbard - I don't think they are important. Whenever - and by whomever - they are obviously quite genuine. During wartime quality can easily deteriorate and how do we know that the bayonet wasn't issued to one of the many satellite countries the Germans set-up. I hope we can find some more items for you to tell us about - meanwhile, post some of your other ones. Mervyn Mervyn, your description is accurate.......with the addition of "...officially modified in length, new police eagle on grip and with the shell ornamentation removed form the cross guard." I picture here an unusual police blade side arm designated the P.S.s. - Polizei Seitengewehr sonderausfuhrung. Little is known of this service bayonet except that it was pictured in the police weapons manuals published until 1944 and described as being fashioned from a S.98/05 by narrowing the blade, applying the oakleaf relief to the pommel, adding horn grips with police insignia and providing a new steel scabbard. Those few in collection are sometimes found with numbers on the cross guard. There is no Prussian police acceptance found on the bayonet. They are made from standard WWI S.98/05s that were employed by many Weimar era state police forces as service bayonets. The approximate date of appearance in 1938/39. The factory providing the modification is thought to be Alcoso, because of similar markings found on scabbard springs in this model and in the "survival machete" produced by that company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leigh kitchen Posted September 9, 2010 Share Posted September 9, 2010 From a position of complete ignorance - could "SCH.P.53" refer to a Shutzpolizei unit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeW Posted September 9, 2010 Share Posted September 9, 2010 From a position of complete ignorance - could "SCH.P.53" refer to a Shutzpolizei unit? The property markings found on M1929 Prussian police bayonets were fully identified for their police armories when marking the bayonets at issue or replacement and listed in their Service Manual 40a. Numerous books and online sites have reproduced this list for collectors. Here is such a site: http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/police_unit_marks.html . So it is not a matter of misunderstanding when it was pointed out that the markings really make no sense according to the service manual. No other police force used this style of bayonet except Prussia. And with the largest police force in Germany until the nationalization of police in 1936, this bayonet was adopted as the sidearm of the Ordnungspolizei. Markings were phased out by 1937. Not conforming to the basic guidelines of the service manual could mean a different things. The markings were applied by someone at that time who didn't read or care about the regulations. Perhaps he wanted his own shorthand. If you read about the 1932 markings in the above link, you will find that "S.P." indicated equipment assigned to the Schutzpolizei of the Administrative District of Potsdam. So perhaps after removing the crossguard and shortening everything, the armorer found he had defaced the original crossguard marking, so he remarked it but he was ignorant of the proper codes. The he also remarked or put a new top scabbard fitting on the scabbard and remarked it too. One can play out various scenarios to explain the odd marking. But it still comes down to having a very nice bayonet with markings that do not conform to the standards of the 1932 manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy G Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 I'm obviously late to the party on this thread. The initial Polizei bayonet posted appears to be a modern reproduction IMHO. These have been around for at least 15 years & some are rather well done, as is this one.Most will be double marked by WKC, the mark lacks requisite detail upon close inspection . Although detailed, the hilt will lack much of the superior detailing of the original 3R/Weimar era Polizei bayonets. The examples that are slotted will exhibit an elongated mortise button, as this one does. The grip emblem, slough aluminum like originals, lacks the detail or a period produced piece. Some will show grey color wood grip plates & others will have newer looking stag. Many are an amalgam of period & modern parts, some are outright reproductions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclovin8172 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) I have one exactly like the first picture but it doesn't have any markings whatsoever on she sheath all it says is 120 but no markings on the bayonet can someone help and tell me the reason why? Edited August 7, 2017 by Mclovin8172 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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