Italian Medals - Date Clasps

[Tim B]

My question pertains mostly to the WW1 campaign medals.

I have seen different types of date clasps associated with the Italian WW1 Victory and Commemorative Medals and also some examples of the clasps for the Albanian Campaign. All the clasps I have seen have a single date on them (eg: 1915; 1916; 1917; 1918).

Were there ever any official, double or inclusive dated clasps like the one pictured below? IF so, what medals were authorized to carry them?

Here's one on a 1912 Italian/Turkish War Medal ribbon but, the only way I could envision such a combination is that the man was serving in that theatre prior to and including WW1? But why were the clasps put on this ribbon? Could it indicate possible colonial service of some sorts?

Tim

Edited August 25, 2010 by Tim B

[RobW]

My question pertains mostly to the WW1 campaign medals.

Were there ever any official, double or inclusive dated clasps like the one pictured below? IF so, what medals were authorized to carry them?

But why were the clasps put on this ribbon? Could it indicate possible colonial service of some sorts?

Tim

Hello Tim,

Yes I have seen numerous single and double-dated bars. They are generally seen on the following two Italian war medals:

* Turkish War medal

* Libyan medal

There are no double-dated bars for the Italian War Commemorative Medal of 1915-1918 nor any bars to the vic.

While the Italian war with Turkey pre-dated the Great War, it is interwined with the subsequent Balkan Wars and Great War so these medals are generally included together for reference. They both have the same ribbon and obverse, carrying the effigy of King Vittorio Emanuele III. In that regard they would be difficult to tell apart on the uniform of an Italian veteran and are often confused without a perusal of the reverse.

The Turkish War medal was instituted by King Vittorio Emanuele III in November 1912 with the reverse bearing the inscription "GUERRA ITALO-TURCA 1911-12". The Libyan medal was also instituted by King Vittorio Emanuele III in September 1913. The reverse of the Libya Medal bears the same design as the Turkish War medal but with the plain inscription, "LIBIA".

As for the date bars on the ribbon; this was one of the few ways to distinguish the two medals.

There was a '1911-12' bar for the pre-war Turkish campaign (this was despite the dates on the reverse of the medal), and for the Libyan campaign you would see either a '1912' and/or '1913', or '1912-13' dated bars. Subsequent service in Libya post this period and into the Great War was recognised by a number of silver dated bars either singular or joined as per your example. This lasted well into the mid 1920's with some unofficial bars for Libyan service still being issued in the mid-to-late 1930s. I am not in Sydney at the moment so I do not have my Italian medal references nearby but when I am back I shall compile a list of known official and unofficial dated bars and post the results.

As for your example I would simply suggest that it is more likely than not to be a Libya medal with service after the major hostilities of 1912-13, followed by service while the Balkan Wars and Great War raged around. If you can have a look at the reverse I would check for the simple inscription 'LIBIA'. Of course it can't be discounted that these clasps have been placed on the Turkish War medal as well.

I have an unusual Italian group of 4 with a vic, war commemorative, and volunteers medal as well as post-war service in Libya in 1919-23. Many Italian troops were either committed to Albania or Libya at that time. The volunteers medal (Medaglia di Volontario di Guerra 1915-1918) indicated that the recipient was not a conscript.

Hope this is of use.

Regards,

Rob

[Hendrik]

Hello Tim,

Yes, bars with multiple years on them are quite possible for a number of Italian campaign medals (Italo-Turkish War, Libian Campaign Commemorative, WWI Commemorative, Unity of Italy Medal, a couple of WWII medals, Fascist Campaign Medal, ...). The WWI & II bars are bronze, the others silver(ed) I believe.

Regards,

Hendrik

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

This piece is actually an Italian/Turkish War Medal and not the one with Libya on the reverse. That was part of my concern, as the Italian/Turkish medal was 1911-1912. Hostilities would have been over, so I could only speculate the guy remained in theatre throughout the Balkan conflicts and throughout WW1. I just could not find any information online showing this style bar or the fact that these bars with dates going out to 1918 were authorized for either the I/T or Libya campaign medals.

I did see another example (Libyan Campaign) but, you can see it has the single date (1913) on it.

Thanks again!

Tim

Edited August 25, 2010 by Tim B

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

Well, I always have reservations asking questions about items that are currently for sale or on an active auction, as it only seems to point out items that available to others. And of course, after +7 days with no bids or apparent interest, immediately bidders come in after the thread verifies the clasps are good.

I guess I can't complain, as everything is always up for grabs until someone wins or pays for an item, I just hate spending so much time trying to research items and asking questions, only to lose out and then wondering if someone just comes in for a free ride to get a nice, scarcer, piece with little to no effort on their own. Of course, they could have been watching it all along, or might not even be a member or visitor here and it was just one of those things.

I guess it's old feelings from my earlier days on WAF where I would see guys continually get undercut by other members that would post items for verification only to lose it. I had a so-called "collector" actually go to a German dealer once and take a mint cased GWL pilot badge from under me and I already had it reserved. I told him about the situation where he then played stupid and still bought it. Turned it around for double the purchase price in four months and told me he had to do it for a trade. Needless to say, I had no use for him or the dealer since. He eventually burned enough bridges with other members and his side "business" dried up. Unfortunately, he had a protege take up for him that did the same thing. Buy up items, post them to show off and ask questions on, then marked them up double for resale. I just don't get these guys and wish they would go away. They are not collectors in my eyes, only opportunists.

Enough of the rant, sorry. Oh well, at least I learned something new here on clasps and my interests go in several directions so things like this don't hinder my collecting efforts anymore.

Thanks again for the answers you two!

Tim

[RobW]

Hello Tim,

Now that I'm back in Sydney and have access to my reference books here is some more details, as indicated, on the medal bars of the Italian-Turkish War medal 1911-12 and the Libia medal.

Italo-Turca Medal.

The only officially approved medal bars for this medal were:

* 1911, 1911-12, 1912

Libia Medal.

There were numerous official bars as well as some unofficial bars. The following long list of official bars were authorised:

* 1912, 1912-13, 1913, Fezzan/1913, 1913-14, Fezzan/1913-14, 1914, Fezzan/1914, 1914-15, 1915, Tripolitania/1915, 1915-16, 1916, 1916-17, 1917, 1917-18, 1918, 1918-19, 1919, 1919-20, 1920, 1920-21, 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927, Tripolitania 1927-1928, 1928, 1929, Tripolitania 1929-1930, 1930, 1931

While this medal was established to recognise service in Libya after the peace treaty of 13 October 1912 (hence the similar dates on bars of both medals), service continued to be recognised within Libya until the onset of World War 2. Subsequent decrees established the granting of bars on the Libia medal until 1931 so bars dated between 1932 and 1940 are considered unofficial. I have pictures of the bars from 1932-1935. There exist single year dated bars from 1932 to 1940.

From a rarity scale the single dated bars are much easier to find than multiple dates with those bars indicating a town and date being the hardest to find.

As a reference I have pics of the following medals with differing date bars:

* Italo-Turca medal - 1911-12, 1912-13, 1913-14, 1914-15, 1915-16, and 1916-17 bars.

* Libia medal - 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919, 1920 and 1921 bars.

* Libia medal - 1914 bar.

* Libia medal - 1925, and 1927 bars.

* Libia medal - 1940 bar.

So while the regulations stated what bars could be worn with what medal it does also appear that veterans wore the bars in the manner they wished. As it is not possible to differentiate the medals by the obverse nor ribbon this could also have been an expedient solution as well.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

Tim,

The reference books used to obtain this information were:

* Le Medaglie Ufficiali Militari E Civil Del Regno D'Italia, Dimitri Bini, 2008 (Bilingual English-Italian)

* Le Decorazioni Del Regno Di Sardegna E Del Regno D'Italia, Vol II, Costantino Scarpa & Paolo Sézanne, 1985 (Italian only)

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

Thanks again for the information Rob! I'm sure I won't be the only one that can use this.

Tim