Imperial German Naval Dagger

[Vic Diehl]

Will collectors please post any pics of Alcoso Imperial German Naval Daggers? Thanks

[Vic Diehl]

Just pushing this back to the top as it is an area of research for Hermann and I. Anyone have any Imperial naval daggers by Alcoso? It would be appreciated it you can conribute to this research. Brass or steel fittings.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

a silly question... did the WW1 and WW2 daggers have the same blade?

Best

Chris

[Vic Diehl]

Chris,

You know as well as I, every question is a good one in this hobby. There are many similarities between Imperial and Third Reich navy blades.

If you look at imperial blades you see more variations. Just off the top of my head, there are a great variety of lengths in Imperial blades. If you look at "heavy" navy daggers blades are longer and wider. Looking at other Imperial blades you see center ridge blades with and without ricasso, Center ridge blades with and without fullers, center ridge blades with fullers on the bottom 1/3 of the blade, center ridge blades with and without etch. When looking at officer daggers produced after 1901 you see more varieties. The two basic officer types are center ridge without fullers and blades without center ridges but have fullers. The ricasso of the main Imperial producers are all a bit different, the main Imperial Naval dagger producers were WKC, Carl Kaiser and Carl Eickhorn. If you look in our navy book Deutsche Marinedolche we have close-ups of all of these blades. For example the ricasso and fullers are entirely different between Eickhorn and WKC. You can spot these two makers from across the room. Just thinking more about Eickhorn and WKC look at the place where the bottom of the ricasso meets the body of the blade, very different between Eicknorn and WKC. Also look at where the fullers begin in relationship to the ricasso. You also have a great variety of blade etches on Imperial blades. When you consider the materials and workmanship on Imperial Navy daggers they are head and shoulders above the Third Reich mass produced pieces.

Third Reich blades, 1929 and 1938 models. They are all short officer styles. It appears the Third Reich blade producers selected the Imperial Eickhorn officer blade as the perferred example and copied that blade shape, ricasso and fullers . There is one long bladed model 1929 dagger that is 100% original and appears to have been carried during the Third Reich, but it is the only one known.

Most Third Reich blades are very similar, you see the dolphin etch or the sailing ship etch. Of course there are some speciality etches and some differences in the ricassos and short and longer fullers but few real variations.

I am sure others can add to this discussion. My biggest problem is I forget so much stuff unlessI am in the middle of it.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am sure others can add to this discussion. My biggest problem is I forget so much stuff unlessI am in the middle of it.

Thank Buddah for that... thought I was the only one to forgot things... :-)

But basically someone could have had a WW1 blade on his WW2 dagger?

Best

Chris

[Vic Diehl]

Chris,

I have burned a little sandlewood, so I will approach this puzzle, wrapped in a question, shrouded in an enigma.

Rarely, and I mean rarely, will you see an Imperial blade on a Third Reich dagger. Yes they do exist. But we are entering into one of the most complicated areas of German navy dagger collecting. Transitional daggers --- or those representing different time periods of component production. If you look in Deutsche Marinedolche page 271-272 you see the personal dagger of Werner Bormann. This dagger was worn from the Imperial times, through the Weimar period and into the Third Reich. Bormann served during all of these periods. This is a true transitional dagger that was originally WW II veteran obtained by Hermann Maurer shortly after the end of the war. Werner Bormann began his career during the Imperial period and was chief engineer on Kaiser's U-86, including that fateful night of June 27 1918 when the U-86 sunk the hospital ship Llandovery Castle by Fastnet Rock. The blade on this dagger has his name correctly engraved on the ricasso.

Looking at this dagger from most recent component to oldest here is what you see. The Nazi eagle pommel. This is a Transitional pommel that was produced in a limited number of variations which were used to replace the reed bundle round tops of 1929 pattern navy daggers, which alowed them to conform to the new 1938 Third Reich regulations. The transitional pommel is very distincitve from the rest of the Third Reich navy pommels. For me, the transitional pommel is a must for it to be a transitional dagger. An Imperial or Weimar dagger with a standard Third Reich pommel IMHO is generally a "mix and match" dagger. Remember this is my opinion only, I have seen 1000's of navy daggers, but I have not seen them all.

Looking further down Bormann's dagger you see a handle and crossguard from the 1929 period. This crossguard is like a number of 1929 daggers in that is has a blade retaining spring, but does not have the push button to release the dagger. The scabbard is from the same time period. I expect that Bormann never wore a black handled Weimar dagger, he just wore his Imperial dagger during the 20's as many other officers did.

Now looking at the blade. Close exmination will reveal that at one time this was an Imperial center ridge blade without fullers. Bormann or one of his engineer buddies reshaped this blade to conform to other 1938 blades including adding fullers. You can tell the fullers are added much later to the blade by close examination and also the fact that on the reverse, who ever was adding the fullers slipped and almost ran one of the fullers off of the edge of the blade.

But the clincher on this dagger to me is the pommel. I am sure the threads on the pommel and the old dagger blade did not match so the pommel was drilled and pinned to the dagger when the pommel was added. The pin shows the correct age, form and method.

IMHO this is a real transitional dagger. An Imperial blade on a dagger with a Third Reich pommel. Over the years I have seen many other examples similar, but they are few and far between.