Regulations for wearing Imperial Insignia

[Mark M]

I was offered an interesting sword for purchase today that is quite unusual. The sword itself is a massive grosser sized lion head with a 34" blade. The scabbard is the nickle double ring style worn pre 1908. The sword itself was manufactured by W K & C with the twin king/knight heads logo. The overall condition is suberb! What is so unusual about the sword is the insignia that appears to be cast into the sword itself. The obverse langet usually will have an indication of the wearer's service branch - crossed cannons for artillery, crossed swords for cavalry, and so on. This sword has an Reichsadler, with the enameled shield on chest, with the Prussian crown and ribbons above it cast into the design. On the knuckle bow is the same crown/ribbons over the insignia for Kaiser Wilhelm II. This insignia also appears cast into the design and must raise out at least 1/4" from the surface. I know that the officers could wear their regimental insignia on their equipment but I can not find any Imperial regiment who used this insignia. This pattern sword is not shown as an option in the 1907 WKC catalog, nor have I ever seen another use this insignia. So, my questions are:

1). Is were there any regulations at the time which would have specified who could and could not wear this, and

2). Has anyone else ever seen a sword use this insignia in this manner?

Sorry for the quality of the photos but this is all I have of the sword.

The first photo is of the reverse side - the sword looks ordinary enough.

[attachmentid=22454]

[Mark M]

The second is a photo of the obverse hilt. Please note the Reichsadler and shield on the langet. The same design is engraved on the blade below the langet.

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[Mark M]

And finally a photo of the knuckle bow. Any and all information or speculations would be welcome.

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[Chip]

Mark,

The style of Wilhelm cypher that appears on the bow of your sword was worn by the members of the 116.IR and the Saxon Ulan Rgt. Nr.21. The cypher on an officer's shoulder board from one of these regiments is identical. This pattern sword is normally identified as a "Kavallerie Interums-S?bel". I am not trying to tell you that this sword must be related to one of these regiments, since this was one cypher of the several official cyphers of the Kaiser and could just be used here in a general way.

Chip

Edited January 12, 2006 by Chip

[Guest Rick Research]

The Reichsadler like that I generally associate with colonial forces. I think you've got an artillery, cavalry, or train officer's sword from China or Africa, before the change in 1906 to 1 ring and blackened scabbards.

Too bad with all that he didn't put his NAME on there-- the mystery would then be solved!

[Mark M]

Chip

Thanks. The Saxon Ulan Nr. 21 insignia did not have the ribbons under the crown and only used the W - it left off the II underneath. I think the 116th Regiment is a dead match. The weird thing is that it really looks like the cyphers were cast into the knuckle bow as there is no eveidence of any attachment pins normally used.

Rick

I too thought of the colonial forces when I saw the Reichsadler. It is the same as normally seen on Imperial naval swords and also the sea batallion insignia. The sea batallion forces normally carried naval swords so I didn't think this was one. Sure, adding the name would make it easy but then think of all the fun we would miss trying to figure out just what this thing really is!

This one really has be stumped!

[Chip]

Mark,

Actually, the cypher on the officer's boards of the 21st Ulans did have the riband and did have the "II". See "Das Deutsche Heer" by Kn?tel d.J., Pietsch and Collas, volume III, second to last page "Nachtr?ge und Korrekturen...".

Best regards,

Chip

Edited January 12, 2006 by Chip

[Mark M]

Chip

Thanks for the reference. I will have to look it up. I was using Didier Laine's L' Armee Allemande en 1914 and it shows it without. I also checked Charles Woolley's Uniforms and Equipment volume 1 and it shows it with the II but without the ribbons. Man, this is fun!

Mark

[Chip]

Mark,

I think the answer is that the enlisted men wore the Kaiser crown without the riband and the officer's wore it with. I have an example of an issue enlisted man's shoulder strap from the regiment for the M1908 (Feldgrau) uniform and the crown is without the riband.

Chip

[Daniel Murphy]

The sea batallion forces normally carried naval swords so I didn't think this was one.

I also say it is a colonial officer's sword since the main insignia on the sword is the reichsadler. The cypher on the bow seems to be secondary. The Seebattalion were not considered colonial forces proper, although they did see service in the colonies. If the cypher designated the unit, I would have thought it would be in a position of honor on the side of the grip or on the langet.

Dan Murphy

[Mark M]

I was able to get a close up photo of the Reichsadler. It is almost identical to the grip emblem on the prescribed colonial forces sword pattern. The underside of the cross guard is also stamped with Gesch Muster, which I think roughly menas this is a substitute pattern?

Here is a picture of the langet.

[attachmentid=23198]

[Mark M]

And here is a photo from the 1908 WKC catalog of the prescribed colonial forces degan. The Reichsadlers are almost identical.

[attachmentid=23199]

[Guest Rick Research]

And there, tadahhhh, is the precise Imperial crowned W cipher on the INFANTRY colonial pattern grip. Having never seen a cipher on the grip of a lionhead, that has been moved to the knuckle guard.

"Gesch. Muster" is simply "Protected Design."

You've got a colonial or East Asian Expeditionary mounted troops officer's sword.