Artillery piece for identification please

[coldstream]

Ladies and Gentlemen

I recently picked up this postcard thinking it was an entrenched piece of field artillery with the hope that I could identify it, however the more I look the more questions arise.

The gun is emplaced in a well constructed wood and earth fortification with the gun dug into the ground with a narrow guage railway line running in front of it.

The large metal disc shaped object may be part of the gun but why is it outside, it certainly does nothing to aid the camouflage of the emplacement.

When looking closely there is a chain running from inside the muzzle of the gun and out of sight to the left of the card! Also the chain is pulled taught, so what is it attached to?

The rear of the card is plain with no writing or makers mark although the general construction indicates a continental Europe maker.

I feel that the location and time frame are Western front in the Great War but have nothing to back that up.

Any ideas anyone please?

Best regards Simon

[coldstream]

The gun muzzle and chain.

[IrishGunner]

Wow, Simon, this is a tough one. Sometimes its difficult to narrow down the model of a gun even when you can see the entire piece - there being variations and modifications. But I'll venture at least a couple guesses. I think this tube is less than 120mm. And possibly even a coastal defense gun converted for field use.

There were some German coastal 10cm candidates, but without seeing the carriage it's difficult to say for sure. From my references, it looks most like the barrel of a British 4.7in QF field gun (which was a converted naval piece). But again, difficult to be sure. The bunker has more of a German look to it - to my eye anyway - than it does a British battery position. I've looked at many artillery photos and it just seems more like the German one's I've seen. So, that would point back to the Germans. Of course, a lot of fortress guns were pulled out and used by the Germans; so, it could be a fortress piece that is a bit odd and not in common references.

The disc could indeed be part of the gun; a few had base plates upon which to traverse. Considering this piece is in a bunker with limited traverse, they just might not need it in this position. And the gunners figured that was a good place to put it out of the way.

The chain is a real conundrum. And certainly is temporary since it would greatly hinder the exit of a shell and result in a blown barrel. Are you sure it's not just an optical illusion?

Sorry, I can't add more than mere guesses. You could try posting it on the Landships forum. There are some particular keen cannon experts there that might give better answers.

[coldstream]

Rick

Many thanks for that, it is indeed a strange one.

Regarding the chain, I too thought that it could be an optical illusion with the chain being used as some form of brace for the bunker construction but under a glass it definately disappears into the muzzle.

I wondered if this bunker could have been captured and the chain was being used to pull the gun out of the bunker but then why anchor it in the barrel and not on some other part of the gun?

I too would say German though.

Best regards Simon

[Harvey]

Re. the chain - it could be used to to attach a bore brush to, then run down the length of the barrel and pulled back out. Given the length of the barrel, it might've been difficult to push a rod with brush attached all the way down. This way, the chain could be fed down the barrel, the brush attached at the breech, then pulled back out the barrel. Just a thought.

[coldstream]

Harvey

A good thought, perhaps one of our ex gunners could tell us if chains are used in this way. My only thought on this would be that if the gun crew were in the process of pulling through the barrel for the photo they would be shown smiling happily for the camera, the chain appears taught and so must be attached to something.

Thanks again Simon :cheers:

[IrishGunner]

Re. the chain - it could be used to to attach a bore brush to, then run down the length of the barrel and pulled back out. Given the length of the barrel, it might've been difficult to push a rod with brush attached all the way down. This way, the chain could be fed down the barrel, the brush attached at the breech, then pulled back out the barrel. Just a thought.

I seriously doubt that the chain was used as you describe. As a gunner, I can't imagine gunners would have subjected the tube to the banging of a chain. The chain would have created nicks, scrapes, and other damage to the rifling of the barrel. While gunnery was still in development, there certainly was an understanding that tube wear had an impact on accuracy. The tube isn't that long to push through a long, extended rod with a bore brush; it's still done that way today. If they had to pull it through, more likely a rope would have been used rather than a chain.

It's for these reasons that the chain makes no sense whatsoever to my mind.

[IrishGunner]

I wondered if this bunker could have been captured and the chain was being used to pull the gun out of the bunker but then why anchor it in the barrel and not on some other part of the gun?

Simon, I wondered about the capture part too; but the "bunker" is really just a screen; there does not seem to be a solid backside to the bunker. They could pull the gun out from the other direction with no trouble.

The tautness of the chain is the most troubling. If it were just hanging out of the barrel, the other theories would make more sense.

[Harvey]

The chain would have created nicks, scrapes, and other damage to the rifling of the barrel. While gunnery was still in development, there certainly was an understanding that tube wear had an impact on accuracy. The tube isn't that long to push through a long, extended rod with a bore brush; it's still done that way today. If they had to pull it through, more likely a rope would have been used rather than a chain.

As a former USMC artillery officer, I have to agree with you. I hadn't considered rope vs. chain, which would make much more sense if that method were used. On our own 155mm howitzers, we still use the rod & bore brush, shoved down from the barrel.

Which makes it even more of a puzzler, as I can't for the life of me think why they would run a chain down the barrel, if it's not to either clean it or move it.

[coldstream]

Rick and Harvey

Many thanks for your replies. Being an ex infantryman I know very little about the gunners art however could this be some attempt to spike a gun prior to being overrun. I have heard of breech blocks being smashed and various parts of the weapon being buried and have also seen those pictures where the gun;s muzzle is splayed open although I have no idea how this is achieved.

Could this be a photograph taken by a successful assault unit having captured the gun before it could be destroyed?

Best regards Simon

[IrishGunner]

Rick and Harvey

Many thanks for your replies. Being an ex infantryman I know very little about the gunners art however could this be some attempt to spike a gun prior to being overrun. I have heard of breech blocks being smashed and various parts of the weapon being buried and have also seen those pictures where the gun;s muzzle is splayed open although I have no idea how this is achieved.

Could this be a photograph taken by a successful assault unit having captured the gun before it could be destroyed?

Best regards Simon

An attempt to damage the gun before capture. Hmm? An interesting theory, but it would take a lot of effort with a chain in the barrel. Smashing breech blocks (or simply removing the block) are easier and thus more common method.

As for the splayed barrels; those are the result a weakened gun tube from excessive wear (because some idiot repeatedly put a chain down the barrel?) caused from repeated and heavy firing of the weapon or because of a flaw in the tube from manufacturer that eventually gives because of the constant pressure. They were common on both sides of the trenches; but the photos you see most often are German guns. In German: rohrkrepiehrer (sp?) which you often see written on the photo.

Edited March 12, 2011 by IrishGunner

[coldstream]

Many thanks for that Rick,

A round exploding before leaving the barrel must be a spectacular and very dangerous experience

I think this card will have to go back in the unidentified pile !!!!!!

Best regards Simon

[IrishGunner]

You know it just occurred to me that back when I still served in a gun battery, we would use a chain (often attached to a crane in the maintenance shop or a 5-ton wrecker in the field) wrapped around the outside of tube in order to pull it "out of battery" (out of its normal firing position which would release pressure on the recoil system) and hold the tube up in order to perform maintenance on the hydraulic recoil system. Of course, again we wrapped the chain on the outside the tube (to prevent tube damage) and it would not slip off because of the muzzle brake.

The gun in the picture likely has a recoil system and the chain could be related to a maintenance procedure. As the tube has no muzzle break, they would need to attach a chain differently. To be this taut, I would think the chain is running down the tube and is connected to something at the breech end. Of course, since it's in the field and not a depot, they would have to use a field expedient method that would not be normally used. Like putting a chain down the barrel.

Also, might explain why the "plate" propped on the front of the bunker has been removed from the gun and has been put out of the way while they perform some type of maintenance.

The maintenance theory is the only thing that makes sense to me now.

[IrishGunner]

I think this card will have to go back in the unidentified pile !!!!!!

Best regards Simon

Don't feel bad; I have a few in that pile - well at least a pile that I'm not 100% sure of. :rolleyes:

[coldstream]

You know it just occurred to me that back when I still served in a gun battery, we would use a chain (often attached to a crane in the maintenance shop or a 5-ton wrecker in the field) wrapped around the outside of tube in order to pull it "out of battery" (out of its normal firing position which would release pressure on the recoil system) and hold the tube up in order to perform maintenance on the hydraulic recoil system. Of course, again we wrapped the chain on the outside the tube (to prevent tube damage) and it would not slip off because of the muzzle brake.

The gun in the picture likely has a recoil system and the chain could be related to a maintenance procedure. As the tube has no muzzle break, they would need to attach a chain differently. To be this taut, I would think the chain is running down the tube and is connected to something at the breech end. Of course, since it's in the field and not a depot, they would have to use a field expedient method that would not be normally used. Like putting a chain down the barrel.

Also, might explain why the "plate" propped on the front of the bunker has been removed from the gun and has been put out of the way while they perform some type of maintenance.

The maintenance theory is the only thing that makes sense to me now.

Rick

Thats the only logical theory so far and does make sense.

Many thanks Simon :cheers:

[Mervyn Mitton]

I'm going to play 'devil's advocate' ! Under wartime conditions normal practises tend to fall away and I think Harvey may well be right that they are cleaning the barrel. The normal rod may have been lost and no way to be replaced in the field.

The circular metal shield with cutout for the barrel looks as if it is to protect the gunners if it were to be used in an exposed area - but, obviously not required in a tight little bunker. I don't understand why no one is shown - usually they all want to be in the picture.....

I agree with German - too untidy for British !

[coldstream]

Thanks for that Mervyn.

Rick is going to circulate the image among some Artillery buffs so with luck we may get a few more theories to discuss,

Simon

[IrishGunner]

Thanks for that Mervyn.

Rick is going to circulate the image among some Artillery buffs so with luck we may get a few more theories to discuss,

Simon

So, far the only theory that has come up on the other forum is the "cleaning" theory. And I just can't get on board with that one...

Why is the chain taut going to the side if they are simply cleaning the gun? Wouldn't it be pulled straight out? And if it's being pulled, why not show the soldiers pulling instead of the barrel and no one?

Of course, cleaning the tube remains a plausible theory, I just don't think likely.

[coldstream]

Many thanks Rick, thanks for all your help

Simon

[Harvey]

Why is the chain taut going to the side if they are simply cleaning the gun? Wouldn't it be pulled straight out?

Who says it's going to the side? If you look closely, it appears that the chain is running straight out & down from the barrel, which gives the appearance of it running sideways. Given the height of the barrel above the ground, I don't think it's unreasonable for the chain to be angling downwards, esp. if the other end is being pulled (at waist height) by a group of men, or connected to something else.

I agree that maintenance on the gun is a better theory than cleaning the bore, yet it doesn't explain why the chain would be run down the barrel. If I were going to pull it out of battery, I would wrap the chain around the end of the barrel, not feed it all the way down to the breech.

[coldstream]

Harvey

The chain does look to lead straight out of the barrel as you say. I'll try to improve the quality of the scan and repost it to see if it helps.

RegardsmonSi

[IrishGunner]

Who says it's going to the side? If you look closely, it appears that the chain is running straight out & down from the barrel, which gives the appearance of it running sideways. Given the height of the barrel above the ground, I don't think it's unreasonable for the chain to be angling downwards, esp. if the other end is being pulled (at waist height) by a group of men, or connected to something else.

I agree that maintenance on the gun is a better theory than cleaning the bore, yet it doesn't explain why the chain would be run down the barrel. If I were going to pull it out of battery, I would wrap the chain around the end of the barrel, not feed it all the way down to the breech.

Who says it's going to the side? I say that it's going to the side.

Quite frankly, as a gunner, there is absolutely no theory to me that acceptably explains why a chain is being run down the tube. Mervyn is right; this is a war-time field expedient method for something.

And to be disciplined enough to care about a clean tube would argue against being stupid enough to use a chain to do the cleaning. So, if one had to use a field expedient method, it had better be something important enough to risk damaging the tube. To me, that is pulling it out of battery to perform some kind of necessary maintenance to be able to make the gun ready to fire. A simple cleaning isn't that important.

Of course, I'm applying my standards as a modern gunner; they could have been quite different in those days. And my standards might be different than other gunners.

Edited March 14, 2011 by IrishGunner

[IrishGunner]

This just sold on eBay for $12 (not to me); it looks like the same battery position. And those are German soldiers.

I think at least we can narrow this down to a German gun position armed with at least 10cm naval ordnance.

But no chain in this photo...

[coldstream]

Rick

Many thanks for that, it certainly looks to be the same piece. I have tried to improve the scan quality on my card to no avail, so I'm awaiting technical assistance from my other half! (she has better computer skills you see!)

I picked up my card at a flea market in Dorset about two weeks ago and finding another image at least shows someone thought the gun posistion was important enough to photograph a number of times.

Thanks again Rick, a German gun posistion it is

Regards Simon