Naval NCO Trade/Rank Insignia –Gun Commander

[Claudius]

Here is a photo of two Geschützführer patches –an embroidered flaming bomb with two chevrons. One in red thread and another in yellow thread. The patches would be worn on the left sleeve, below the technical badge. The summer white tunics would have a white patch with blue embroidery; however the dark blue “winter” or parade jackets would have the distinguishing insignia in either red or yellow thread.

The reason of the different colored thread lies in the organization structure of the Imperial German Navy.

In briefest outlines; the Kaiserliche Marine was divided into three parts;

1) Marinebehörden –General staff/Inspection/Cabinet

2) Marineteilen zur See –all the men aboard ships

3) Marinteilen am Lande;

a. Matrosen Divisions

b. Werft Divisions

c. See-Bataillon, in both Ostsee Kiel and Nordsee Wilhelmshaven

d. Torpedo Division

e. Stamm- See-Bataillon

f. Matrosen-Artillerieabteilung

g. Minenabteilung

h. Schiffsjungendivision on SS “König Wilhelm”

i. Marine-Luftschifferabteilung

j. Marine Fliegerabteilung

Under the Marine am Lande partition, the Matrosen divisions used RED thread for their Trade insignia and the Matrosen-Artillerieabteilung divisions used YELLOW thread for their insignia. Historically, there were a greater number of Matrosen men than Matrosen-Artillerieabteilung men and therefore the RED thread insignia is more common.

[Claudius]

...backs...

[Claudius]

It is imaginable that men wearing these patches could be on leave at the same time. Walking down the Reeperbahn in Hamburg they could pass by each other on their respective left sides. If they could be distracted for a moment from the “scenery” to look at each other they would notice, that while they were organized under different departments within the same navy, they essentially did the same job. It is also likely that they were the Geschützführer for the same manufacturer type/caliber gun.

[Claudius]

red

[Claudius]

red...reverse

[Claudius]

yellow

[Claudius]

yellow...reverse

[Claudius]

With this information, we can deduce the thread color for this gent in the B&W photo. It is known that the man’s name is Willy Furstenberg. He was a Feldwebel in the 1st Kompanie, der Matrosen Artillerie-Abteilung Kiatschou. Stationed in Tsingtau, China at the start of the war, he was captured and POW’ed in Japan at the Kukuoka and later the Narashiro camps. He returned to Berlin in December 1919.

As a sailor in the MAK-station Kiatschou he would have had a YELLOW thread patch

[Claudius]

close-up of sleeve

[Chip]

Claudius,

Thanks for posting this information. The rank and branch insignia of the navy are not well understood in the collecting community, so this very helpful. If you collect the insignia, I encourage you to submit some more for explanation.

Here is a scarce example of the Matrosen Artillerie Geschützführer sleeve patch on feldgrau cotton for the gray wartime jumper.

Chip

[Chip]

Though not a Geschützführer patch, this one will give you an idea of what the white one would have looked like.

Chip

[Claudius]

Hello Chip;

Those are some great patches. No, I don't usually collect rank insiginia. (I'm already into too many things) But I think they are a great area to collect. There are many distintive and varied insigina for the different trades.

I would encourage others to post their patches on this thread. They can be stand alone or still attached to a uniform sleeve.

[jaba1914]

I love this navy patches and i wish i had more of them.

Heere a nice one. A patch for an Obermaschinistenmaat.

I would like to see more of this.

Regards Alex

[Chip]

Nice one Alex! I love these patches too. Being an insignia guy, I have been gathering them for decades. Of course, there are too many to get them all and the prices are getting steep, but they still turn up from time to time. Here is another example. Torpedo-Mechanikersmaat.

Chip

Edited June 24, 2011 by Chip

[jaba1914]

One more but nothing special

[Chip]

Alex,

Just to identify your patch for anyone else looking at this....it's a Maschinistenmaat. Here is another of mine, a Torpedermaat.