France Fourragere awarded "a titre personnel"?

[ralstona]

Hello all,

I am not 100% sure I understand what it means to be "awarded" a fourragere "a titre personnel". How did this work? Any help appreciated.

Art

[aubagne98]

Hi,

a fourragere is awarded to a unit.

For example,in the French Foreign Legion these units are the regiments.

All members of the regiment wears this fourrageres, they will receive it during the "remise de fourragere".

Michael

[Veteran]

Michael

A fourragere is part of a unit's uniform. All members of the unit while serving with it wear whichever kind of fourragere the unit received since it was created. When they leave the unit, they stop wearing the fourragere.

Men who were fighting with the unit when the croix de guerre citations were earned, have a right to wear it "a titre personnel" as long as they serve with the forces, never mind what unit. The same rule applies for members of the forces who were present with their units when a U.S. Presidential Unit Citation was earned.

I have tried to make it short. I will be happy to clarify further details if you feel that could help.

Regards

Veteran

[ralstona]

What happens if they go to a unit that also wears a fourragere? Do they wear both?

If the unit they were with goes on to earn more citations, do they "upgrade"?

Art

[aubagne98]

Hi Veteran,

thanks for explantion.

how do they wear the fourragere?

As a miniatur like this http://www.lalegion-pictures.com/ul/img/aubagne98_1312628737.jpg ?

Or as a normal fourragere?

I know, that soldiers are allowed to wear the fourragere of their former unit in case the current regiments commander gives is ok, but this must be worn with the breast insignia (in french: pucelle) on it - is it the same way wearing the fourragere with pucelle for "a titre personnel"?

Michael

[Veteran]

Ralstona

Normally they wear the unit's fourragère. It they really want to look like a Xmass tree, they probably would have to talk about it with their commanding officer. I have no idea what the answer would be.

Fourragere à titre personnel represent the number of citations received by the original unit the man was fighting with and that he personnally helped to earn. No "upgrading";

Aubagne98

Wear of a fourragère a titre personnel with a service uniform is the normal way on the left side around the shoulder.

Miniatures were probably invented by post WW1 veterans and sported on the ribbon of a decoration, usually a croix de guerre if the veteran had earned one. They filled a need when veterans gathered in civvies sporting their full medals and could/would not wear the full fourragere.

To my knowledge, they have no official status and certainly should not be worn on a service uniform.

[ralstona]

So this of course connects to my great-grandfather again. He earned a fourragere "a titre personnel" of the CdG T.O.E. I believe this was for Syria in 1925. He fought at the Battle of Messifre in the Druse War. He was either with the 5e/4e REI or the company of the 1 REC which were there. I can't quite figure out which. His unit at this point is a bit confusing. He went to Syrie in 1923 with 4e/4e REI and served in "Mesopotamia" and the "Confines of the Euphrates" on "policing" duties. The 4e battalion then went back to Algeria and was replaced by the 5e battalion of the 4e REI. He either stayed on with the 5e or transfered to the 1e REC which was their by that time. Both the 5/4 and the 1 REC (one company) fought at Messifre and earned a fourragere for their unit.

Art

[Bernhard H.Holst]

So this of course connects to my great-grandfather again. He earned a fourragere "a titre personnel" of the CdG T.O.E. I believe this was for Syria in 1925. He fought at the Battle of Messifre in the Druse War. He was either with the 5e/4e REI or the company of the 1 REC which were there. I can't quite figure out which. His unit at this point is a bit confusing. He went to Syrie in 1923 with 4e/4e REI and served in "Mesopotamia" and the "Confines of the Euphrates" on "policing" duties. The 4e battalion then went back to Algeria and was replaced by the 5e battalion of the 4e REI. He either stayed on with the 5e or transfered to the 1e REC which was their by that time. Both the 5/4 and the 1 REC (one company) fought at Messifre and earned a fourragere for their unit.

Art

hello Art.

The following information is from the book:

Royal Etranger

Legionnaires Cavaliers au Combat 1921-1984

by Alain Gandy

It lists combats at Messifre, Sep.17, 1925 and Rachaya, Nov.1925. Infantry of the 4.REI and 4.Escadron of the 1.REC were involved.

The 4./1.REC was awarded two Palmes of the C.d.G./ T.O.E.

Bernhard H. Holst

formerly of the 1.REC in Vietnam

[aubagne98]

hi,

according to this site http://www.france-phaleristique.com/fourrag.htm

there were following fourrageres TOE awarder to the FFL

- 3./2. REI 07.02.1927

- 8./1. REI 21.04.1927

- 6./1. REI 02.07.1927

[aubagne98]

Well, this opens another question to me.

Were the members of the awarded bataillons allowed to wear a fourragere?

I thought only in case the regiment´s drapeau was decorated with a fourragere the members wear it.

[Veteran]

I am afraid the true nature of the fourragère is missed : a unit does not gain a fourragère for just one battle. A fourragère means a unit won SEVERAL ARMY LEVEL CITATIONS to the croix de guerre.

When a unit has a least two, the fourragere is green and red or light blue and red (croix de guerre colours).

When it has at least four, the fourragere is yellow and green (médaille militaire

When it has a least six the colour is red (legion d'honneur)

Which means that the flag has a croix de guerre with the correct number of palms on its ribbon.

So, if a man fought in all battles which won two Army level Citations for the unit they belonged to, he would be eligible to a green and red fourragere a titrre personnel . If it had been in colonial wars, the fourragere would have been light blue and red.

Best regards

Veteran

[ralstona]

Veteran,

Thanks, I think I understand how it works now. I saw that sight too, but I am confused. He definitely didn't serve with any of those units. In the Men-At-Arms: Foreign Legion 1914-1945 it states that the V/IV REI won a CdG TOE fourragere for the action 17 sept 25 (Messifre) and the 1/REC won it for the action at Rachaya 20-23 Nov. 1925. If you search for "R.E.C. Fourragere 1925" several sites confirm this. So again, I am lost.

Art

[aubagne98]

The 4./1.REC was awarded two Palmes of the C.d.G./ T.O.E.

Hi Veteran,

the system you have shown I know and it is clear to me.

My question is, if members of a bataillon which received two palmes are allowed to wear a fourragere?

My knowledge is that only when the regiment is awarded all members of the regiment wear it.

Hi ralstona,

I didn´t find a source about the information the 5/4 REI received a fourragere.

Do you have a link?

Or do you have photos or documents you can show?

Greetings

Michael

[ralstona]

Hi,

Here is a link to the mention of the 5/4 REI and its fourragere. http://books.google.com/books?id=zv6egv9EsjwC&q=syria+1925#v=snippet&q=syria%201925&f=false It is the reference on page 43. D2 refers to the 5/4. Again I am not sure he was with this unit, he might have been with the 1 REC which seems more definite on the fourragere. In his final dossier he lists under his awards a Fourragere CdG TOE (a titre personnel).

Art

[Bernhard H.Holst]

Hello readers:

the site France Phaleristique lists the Fouragere in the colors of the Croix de Guerre T.O.E bestowed to the:

- 4.Escadron/1.REC on 12.Mar.1926;

- 1.REC on 8.Jul.1952 ( entire regiment);

- 1.Groupe d'Escadrons/1.REC on 19.May 1953.

I did not find any entry for any component of the 4.REI.

Bernhard H. Holst

[aubagne98]

Hello,

watch this http://www.farac.org/php/article.php3?id_article=184

La fourragère à titre individuel.

Encore une question mal connue.

Par la circulaire du 22 Février 1918, tout combattant ayant participé aux faits de guerre, visés dans les citations ayant provoqué l’attribution de la fourragère à leur unité, pourra la conserver, à titre individuel, même après son affectation à un autre corps ne l’ayant pas.

Ce droit fait l’objet d’une attestation du chef de corps. Généralement lorsqu’un corps a été cité à l’ordre de l’armée, chaque combattant reçoit la copie de la citation avec au bas la mention de son nom, de sa présence au corps et de la signature de son chef de corps. La fourragère portera alors sur un coulant placé au-dessus du ferret ou de l’olive, suivant la nature de la fourragère, le numéro en métal de l’unité ou de la formation d’origine. A défaut de numéro, l’insigne régimentaire ou de la formation sera épinglé au-dessus du ferret.

C’est cette décision qui pourrait expliquer les fourragères "modèle réduit" de la croix de guerre 1914-1918 figurant sur le ruban de certaines croix de guerre de cette époque et qui auraient indiqué que le titulaire, en plus de sa citation personnelle, était présent au régiment lors des faits de guerre qui avaient fait attribuer à ce dernier la fourragère verte et rouge.

I hope you can translate it into English

Bernhard, thanks for the information.

[ralstona]

So this is confusing me. Did the V/IV REI earn a fourragere or not? They were definitely there. Some places say yes, some say no. Hmm?

[Bernhard H.Holst]

So this is confusing me. Did the V/IV REI earn a fourragere or not? They were definitely there. Some places say yes, some say no. Hmm?

Hello Art.

I have consulted the site : www.france-phaleristique.com which I have viewed many times before and is in my opinion reliable though not official.

BTW: the book "The French Foreign Legion" by Douglas Porch quotes an ex-legionnaire that the VIII./1.REI was the unit deployed in Syria.

Bernhard H. Holst

[ralstona]

The 4th was definitely there. Both the 4e and 5e battalions at different times. The 5/4 was at Messifre with the 1 REC. Here is a quote from a website about the 4e REI.

"Dans le même temps, le 4ème puis le 5ème bataillon du 4 s’illustrent au Levant, entre 1921 et 1926."

Art

[TacHel]

Hello,

watch this http://www.farac.org...?id_article=184

La fourragère à titre individuel.

Encore une question mal connue.

Par la circulaire du 22 Février 1918, tout combattant ayant participé aux faits de guerre, visés dans les citations ayant provoqué l’attribution de la fourragère à leur unité, pourra la conserver, à titre individuel, même après son affectation à un autre corps ne l’ayant pas.

Ce droit fait l’objet d’une attestation du chef de corps. Généralement lorsqu’un corps a été cité à l’ordre de l’armée, chaque combattant reçoit la copie de la citation avec au bas la mention de son nom, de sa présence au corps et de la signature de son chef de corps. La fourragère portera alors sur un coulant placé au-dessus du ferret ou de l’olive, suivant la nature de la fourragère, le numéro en métal de l’unité ou de la formation d’origine. A défaut de numéro, l’insigne régimentaire ou de la formation sera épinglé au-dessus du ferret.

C’est cette décision qui pourrait expliquer les fourragères "modèle réduit" de la croix de guerre 1914-1918 figurant sur le ruban de certaines croix de guerre de cette époque et qui auraient indiqué que le titulaire, en plus de sa citation personnelle, était présent au régiment lors des faits de guerre qui avaient fait attribuer à ce dernier la fourragère verte et rouge.

I hope you can translate it into English

Bernhard, thanks for the information.

This means that when a soldier was part of a unit when the unit earned the citations giving it the right to a fourragère, that same soldier can keep wearing the fourragère after a transfer to another unit. The former unit's number or miniature insignia is worn above the ferret (metal point).

Edited November 18, 2011 by TacHel

[aubagne98]

Hi ralstona,

I just contacted this evening a friend, he is caporal and regiment photographer of the 4. REI in Castelnaudary.

Maybe he will find a answer.

Michael

[ralstona]

Great Michael, that would be great. Here is a picture of my great-grandfather wearing his fourragere. This picture was taken in 1932 when he was Adjudant-Chef of the 2nd Tirailleurs Algerien. It was taken in Mostaganem. This was from his time in between his Legion service and being recalled as a reservist for the 13eme DBLE in 1940. As you can see he is wearing a different fourragere than his men. My uncle has his CdG TOE fourragere today.

[Veteran]

Hello all

aubagne98 brought the true reference. This right to a "fourragère à titre personnel" requires the Unit CO's affidavit. One cannot just decide if he is intitled or not.

Frankly, that is as much as one can contribute.

Best regards

Veteran

[ralstona]

Veteran,

Thanks for all your help. I am not in doubt about his right to wear it. The evidence for that is rock solid. I just want to know which unit he was with when he earned the right to wear it. He also earned an individual CdG TOE which I also believe was for Syrie.

Art