Different Sword?

[Mike Dwyer]

I've seen photos of lots of German military swords and they all seem to follow a fairly common pattern. I was looking through evilBay today at some German royalty/military postcards and I saw this one of Prince Moritz zu Schaumburg-Lippe. The sword he's wearing looks almost like an old rapier and doesn't look like any of the German military swords I'm used to seeing.

[Guest Rick Research]

That is a fancy version of the M1818, which was the standard until replaced by the M1889. It was left to the discretion of officers who already had one of these whether they kept wearing it or updated, and hereditary "honor weapons" in this pattern continued to be worn right into the Third Reich.

If you have Brian L. Davis's "German Army Uniforms and Insignia 1933-1945," the photo across pages 74-75-- the General at far left is leaning on one (with both guards folded up) circa 1935-36.

These swords were styled after French court swords. German civil service organizations continued to wear this pattern until 1918. For reasons known only to Fat Hermann, the Luftwaffe swords for General officers were revived in this silly old fashioned style as well... so it had quite a run!

Let me see if I can come with a better photo than "Excatibur!"

[attachmentid=24951]

[Mark M]

Rick

Take a closer look at the degen and you will see that there is a difference between the pictured sword and yours. Prince Moritz is wearing the tunic of a Kurassier officer and the degen is the standard pattern degen worn by Kurassier officers for gala occasions. The degen in your photo is the M1818 that you mention. The big difference between the two is the Kurassiers degen has a cross guard that is raised above the claim shell and is shaped like a "T" with the knuckle bow attaching at the halfway point on one side. Your degen has a slightly different cross guard configuration. While the differences are minor to the eye there is a termendous difference in the value of the sword.

Here is the standard M1818 pattern:

[attachmentid=25069]

And here is the Kurassiers pattern:

[attachmentid=25070]

[Mike Dwyer]

Rick

...Prince Moritz is wearing the tunic of a Kurassier officer... and the Kurassiers degen has a cross guard that is raised above the claim shell and is shaped like a "T" with the knuckle bow attaching at the halfway point on one side.

You're absolutely right! That's why I originally said in my original post that it looked like a rapier, it was that cross T that brought that to mind.

Edited January 29, 2006 by Mike Dwyer

[Guest Rick Research]

Eh, all those swishy Zorro swords look alike to me! So what earthly USE is the superfluous EXTRA guard supposed to be?

Perches for the regimental canaries?

[Mike Dwyer]

Eh, all those swishy Zorro swords look alike to me! So what earthly USE is the superfluous EXTRA guard supposed to be?

Perches for the regimental canaries?

Regimental Finches! Hussars used canaries!

[Guest Rick Research]

training one

[attachmentid=25084]

[Mark M]

Eh, all those swishy Zorro swords look alike to me! So what earthly USE is the superfluous EXTRA guard supposed to be?

Perches for the regimental canaries?

No, I think it had to do with the fact that most Kurassier officers were of nobility and could afford twice the sword as other officers!

The funny thing is that the two swords use the same blade and scabbard. The only difference was in the hilt design. But it is what it is and it makes the difference between a $200 dollar sword and a $2000 sword!

[Mark M]

Regimental Finches! Hussars used canaries!

No, no, everyone knows that dragoon's used canaries. Hussars were well known for their love of parrots. They were known to ride into battle with them sitting on their shoulders!

[Mike Dwyer]

No, no, everyone knows that dragoon's used canaries. Hussars were well known for their love of parrots. They were known to ride into battle with them sitting on their shoulders!

How stupid of me! Of course you're absolutely right! I must have been thinking of the Russian hussars who were known for using canaries!

[Bob Hunter]

It's nice to watch you guys give each other the bird and no arguments develop.

[Les]

How stupid of me! Of course you're absolutely right! I must have been thinking of the Russian hussars who were known for using canaries!

Hmm....well at least the German Navy officers and men had the good sense not to be seen posing with parrots.

Les

[landsknechte]

Eh, all those swishy Zorro swords look alike to me! So what earthly USE is the superfluous EXTRA guard supposed to be?

Perches for the regimental canaries?

If you're referring to the horizontal guard, it's two things:

1. A relic of the good old days when these things were actually expected to be used. Especially on the inside (the side opposite the knuckle bow) they do a wonderful job of stopping an opponents blade from sliding down your blade onto your hand or writst.

2. It helps with the grip. You can wrap your index finger around the cross guard, and it can give you additional control over the blade. There are still some modern "Olympic" style fencers that use a grip derived from this principle.

--Chris

P.S.

The swords these were based on weren't exclusively French by any means, but in terms of sheer swishiness, they were probably the most French in idiom.