Confused by Grand dad's medal bar

[ColinRF]

Hello:

Can someone please explain these medals to me?

Its my grandfather's undress gongs - he gave them to me when I was 10 or so.

Alick Hayden Finney (born Newtown, Montgomeryshire, Wales) was awarded an OBE or MBE in the 50s for his work in the Staffs fire service. That ties in with the defence medal on the bar. I understand he was also in the police service sometime between the wars. Does the King's police medal signify some act of gallantry, exemplary service or just keeing his nose clean?

The real mystery to me are the WWI Mutt and Jeff. I have ancestry for a month or two but can find no record of service in a military unit. No MIC either?

Would it be possible for a police or fire officer on home service to earn these awards?

Very confused.

Colin

Edited February 5, 2012 by ColinRF

[ColinRF]

Some confusion removed re the last 2:as the police medal ribbon = the fire service ribbon i find.

The KING has been pleased to award the King's Police and Fire Services Medal for Distinguished Service to the

undermentioned Officers: — (Fifth Supplement to the L/G. 37598, 13th June 1946, pp. 2820.)

Fire Services: England and Wales.

Alick Haydon FINNEY, Fire Force Commander, No. 23 (Stoke) Fire Force.

and

Whitehall, January I, 1955.

The QUEEN has been graciously pleased to approve the award of the British Empire Medal (Civil Division) to the

undermentioned: — (Supplement to the L/G. 40366, 1st January 1955, pp. 30.)

Alick Hayden FINNEY, Esq. Chief Officer, Staffordshire Fire Brigade.

But I still don't know why I can't find any record of wwI service for the first 2 - any thoughts?

Thanks

Colin

[Mervyn Mitton]

Hi, Colin. The two awards for Fire are both very good - nice to see his Ranks are shown - he was running Staffordshire

at the time of the MBE.

The first World War1 trio are usually called 'Pip, Squeak and Wilfred' after a famous cartoon of the time. They must be named around the rim

and should show his Rank - Number - Name and Unit. Have a look and let us know. Mervvyn

[Arthur R]

Hi Colin

According to London Gazette 40366, pages 13-14, Alick Finney was awarded the OBE in the 1955 New Years Honours. Much better than a BEM.

[ColinRF]

OK thanks gents.

You're right Richard - http://www.london-ga.../supplements/14

Nice to get the OEB confirmed Arthur. Ii thought it wa a family legend that had some inflation built in when I saw the BEM citation in a lsting of fire service awards someone compiled. http://www.kent.fire...s_1890-2009.pdf It clearly in error although the LG issue is correct - but my grandfather is not on the referenced page. Strange mistake to make.

This may be another family legend but I believe he was heavily involved in Coventry in 1940. I was told as a child that he had to step in when his senior officer had some sort of stress breakdown. He was visiting here when the book "The Ultra Secret" hit the media and I still recall his rage when he diccovered that they knew about Coventry in advance and did nothing. It would be great to fin out more aout that too but I have no clue on how to approach research.

These are undress minis Mervyn so they are not engraved. No idea where the full size medals went in the family so I can't check.

So I am reduced to looking for documentaiton. As far as I know he was not in a serving unit and I cannot find anything military on ancestry - no pension, enlistment, awards etc. So how could he have the WWI campaign pair? I do know his brother Clement was KIA in Aug. 28, 1918 serving as a Pvt with 14 Service Bn Royal Welsh Fulisiers.

If he was in the fire service in late WWI, is there any way he could have earned these medals for UK service? Could he have been posted to France as a fire officer? Is there anyway to determine his fire service record - eg join date?

Mystery.

Colin

Edited February 5, 2012 by ColinRF

[Arthur R]

This may be another family legend but I believe he was heavily involved in Coventry in 1940. I was told as a child that he had to step in when his senior officer had some sort of stress breakdown. He was visiting here when the book "The Ultra Secret" hit the media and I still recall his rage when he diccovered that they knew about Coventry in advance and did nothing. It would be great to fin out more aout that too but I have no clue on how to approach research.

Small world : my father was in the Auxiliary Fire Service in Coventry in 1940. He'd just finished school, and was not yet old enough to be called up, so he was placed in the part-time AFS in the meantime. Certainly a baptism of fire on the night of 14-15 November 1940!

The story goes that the government found out about the planned raid from German comms which they intercepted with the captured Ultra machine, but decided not to evacuate the city because that would have tipped off the Germans, who would have changed their codes. They did, however, place the fire brigades of neighbouring counties on standby for an "exercise" so as to have them available on the night. So, the people of Coventry were sacrificed to enable military intelligence to continue using the captured Ultra machine for the greater good. The story has been denied -- whether there is any hard evidence either way available in National Archives I don't know.

So I am reduced to looking for documentaiton. As far as I know he was not in a serving unit and I cannot find anything military on ancestry - no pension, enlistment, awards etc. So how could he have the WWI campaign pair? I do know his brother Clement was KIA in Aug. 28, 1918 serving as a Pvt with 14 Service Bn Royal Welsh Fulisiers.

If he was in the fire service in late WWI, is there any way he could have earned these medals for UK service? Could he have been posted to France as a fire officer?

The conditions of award for both these medals, as set out in Taprell Dorling's Ribbons and Medals, expressly require service in an theatre of war.

If your grandfather's brother was in the RWF, he may well have enlisted there too. However, according to the RWF Museum website [ http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/en_re.html ] 60% of the regiment's WWI records were destroyed in the blitz in 1940, which might perhaps explain the absence of anything on Ancestry.com.

It might be worth trying the Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/ ] They ought to know what records exist of local lads who joined up in the war - there might have been notices in the local newspapers, for instance.

Is there anyway to determine his fire service record - eg join date?

Why not contact Staffordshire Fire & Rescue? As he was their chief, they ought to have some record of him - perhaps there was an article about him in a magazine when he retired. Their website : http://www.staffordshirefire.gov.uk/

[ColinRF]

Thanks Arthur - very comprehensive. I wonder if they ever crossed paths in 1940? Your comment re putting surrounding fire services on standby is interesting. Explains why why a Staffs senior fire officer would be there I guess.

I should have shown more interest before everyone from that generation of the family had passed on (kicks self!).

Colin

Edited February 5, 2012 by ColinRF

[ColinRF]

Here's another possibility....perhaps the two WWi campaign medals would be his brother Clement's as he was awarded those two. Alick was born Feb 1900 so we would have been too young to see legally join up, train and a month's worth of action before Nov 1918. Plus I never heard a word about army service for him.

Found this discussion saying one could wear a close KIA relative's medals on a blazer if worn on the right...and these minis would have been worn on civies I presume. http://www.arrse.co....-relatives.html Interestingly the medals are mounted in reverse order of precedence unless they were intended to be worn on the right on a blazer.

Seems a long shot though......especially as all the awards are afixed to one bar. Any opinions?

Colin

Edited February 6, 2012 by ColinRF

[ColinRF]

Some additional evidence - a photo of my grandparents and my Mum at the Palace Feb '55. With a close-up of the medal bar and no WWI awards in sight.

Colin

Edited February 6, 2012 by ColinRF

[Arthur R]

Here's another possibility....perhaps the two WWi campaign medals would be his brother Clement's as he was awarded those two. Alick was born Feb 1900 so we would have been too young to see legally join up, train and a month's worth of action before Nov 1918. Plus I never heard a word about army service for him.

Found this discussion saying one could wear a close KIA relative's medals on a blazer if worn on the right...and these minis would have been worn on civies I presume. http://www.arrse.co....-relatives.html Interestingly the medals are mounted in reverse order of precedence unless they were intended to be worn on the right on a blazer.

A very long shot, I think, Colin. It's one thing to wear a deceased relative's medals on Remembrance Day, and another to wear them permanently on one's uniform. As a county fire chief, he would have set a very bad example by wearing medals to which he wasn't entitled.

If he was born in Feb 1900, he could have enlisted early in 1918, and been sent overseas in the second half of the year, just in time to qualify for the medals.

The miniatures are mounted in the correct precedence for the 1940s. At that time, the KPFSM ranked after campaign medals. It was moved up to its present position some years later.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Arthur R

[Arthur R]

Some additional evidence - a photo of my grandparents and my Mum at the Palace Feb '55. With a close-up of the medal bar and no WWI awards in sight.

His ribbons appear to be :

Upper row : OBE - KPFSM - British War Medal

Lower row : Defence Medal - Queen Elizabeth II Coronation (1953) - King George VI Coronation (1937).

The two coronation medal ribbons are the wrong way round, and the Victory Medal ribbon is missing. Given that these ribbon bars must have been made up in a bit of a hurry between the gazetting of the OBE and the presentation a few weeks later, perhaps the tailor got a bit flustered, or didn't have any Victory Medal ribbon in stock.

I wonder why the group of miniatures is missing the George VI coronation medal.

Something else : a Fire Brigades Long Service Medal was authorised in 1954. It was awarded after 20 years service. Your grandfather ought to have qualified for that too, once the authorities began awarding it.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Arthur R

[ColinRF]

Arthur - thanks very much for the efffort you have put into this. Its much appreciated. I though I had a workable solution to my mystery but after reading your rebuttal I have to say that I think you are probably correct, especially as I had the order of precedence argument wrong and you ID'd the war medal on his bar in 1955.

But it seems very strange to me that I can't find a MIC for my grandfather. Unlike service and attestation records destroyed 60% in the blitz, it is my understanding that these are generally complete and available for almost all soldiers, with the possible exception of some senior officers. The mystery continues. I'll let you all know if I find anything out. Colin

Edited February 6, 2012 by ColinRF

[Arthur R]

Colin,

Have you seen this on the UK National Archives website?

http://www.nationala...Edoc_Id=7063548

I don't know if I'm reading it correctly, but this page, and the linked page for ADM 188/636, give me the impression that there's an entry for your grandfather in a Royal Naval Air Service register for 1917 (register F44), his number being F44726.

[ColinRF]

I think you have cracked it Arthur. I saw AH Finney records on Ancestry but ignored them as it never cocurred to me that he was in the Navy. I just assumed army. I will check tonight and post anything of interest.

Thanks a million!

Colin

[censlenov]

Single BWM to The RN and RNAS are not that uncommon. So Naval service makes sense. The photo makes sense also and his entitlement is very logical given his standing in the fire service. I believe his full group will be OBE, KPFSM, BWM, Def medal, 37 coronation, and 53 coronation.

Cheers

Chris

[jeffskea]

His ribbons appear to be :

Upper row : OBE - KPFSM - British War Medal

Lower row : Defence Medal - Queen Elizabeth II Coronation (1953) - King George VI Coronation (1937).

The two coronation medal ribbons are the wrong way round, and the Victory Medal ribbon is missing. Given that these ribbon bars must have been made up in a bit of a hurry between the gazetting of the OBE and the presentation a few weeks later, perhaps the tailor got a bit flustered, or didn't have any Victory Medal ribbon in stock.

I wonder why the group of miniatures is missing the George VI coronation medal.

Something else : a Fire Brigades Long Service Medal was authorised in 1954. It was awarded after 20 years service. Your grandfather ought to have qualified for that too, once the authorities began awarding it.

I believe the last ribbon would be the Fire Brigade Long Service Medal and not the 1937 Coronation, it fits given the photo was from 1955 after the award was instituted. So I would say the ribbon set is the correct precedence, and the single BWM would be plausible as Chris mentioned.

Jeff

[ColinRF]

Makes sense except he has a VM on his minis.

Thanks for taking the time to provide an opinion.

Colin

[ColinRF]

So this is all I found at Kew. Thanks again arthur. Only cost me 3 quid too.

The AH Finney I saw on Ancestry is not my Grandfather but this at least shows his WWI service and arm so I consider my mystery solved.

Thanks to all who asssisted and commented.

Colin

Edited February 7, 2012 by ColinRF

[Mervyn Mitton]

Brian asked me to say that we have both been impressed with the joint efforts of Members in helping

to research this important Group. Good that you have the information Colin and we hope you will continue

to join-in on the Forum. Mervyn

[Arthur R]

So this is all I found at Kew. Thanks again arthur. Only cost me 3 quid too.

Great! So, he enlisted in the RNAS in December 1917 and transferred to the RAF when it was formed in April 1918.

I believe the last ribbon would be the Fire Brigade Long Service Medal and not the 1937 Coronation,

You're right, it does make more sense.

It looks as though there are two "firsts" here : one of the founder members of the RAF in 1918, and one of the earliest recipients of the Fire Brigade LSM in 1954/55.

[ColinRF]

Totally cool - my Dad was RAF.

He would have had to show his father-in-law more respect if he'd known! Just kidding!

To echoe Mervyn - what a great example of members helping someone who is located too far way to visit any archives and who is lacking enough knowledge to know where to look on the net for these little gems of info.

All I can say is thanks again to all!

Colin