A another time coordinate for Sacred Treasure Order with plain reverse

[JapanX]

We know that plain reverses (and four reverts reverses???) were replaced by two-screws reverses in the early 1980s. But we don’t know when exactly this change happened and was it abrupt change or old and new constructions of reverses co-existed for some time.

The earlier time coordinate for two-screws reverse construction that we have (thanks to our colleague Pieter1012) is July of 1983. And here comes another documented order. Issued in 1981 this 4^th class has plain reverse!

[JapanX]

Order and the box

[JapanX]

Reverse

[JapanX]

Obverse close up

[JapanX]

Reverse close up

[JapanX]

Document

Awarded to Daidou Mikio. Dated May 29, 1981.

Edited March 11, 2012 by JapanX

[JapanX]

It looks like plain reverse/two-screws reverse change occurred somewhere between May of 1981 and July of 1983.

Closer and closer …

[Dieter3]

I think this is getting close! But one of the biug questions - when was the plain reverse first introduced???

[JapanX]

I think this is getting close! But one of the biug questions - when was the plain reverse first introduced???

Give me some time mate ;)

[fukuoka]

Just got a framed 5th Class ST with document. Two screws--and dated Showa 60 [1985].

[JapanX]

Thanks Rich!

And I recently saw a documented 4th class with two screws dated 1994.

Regards,

Nick

Edited March 14, 2012 by JapanX

[Dieter3]

And here is another question pertaining to dates:

When was the move from this style of lapel button: to this style: http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2012/post-6375-0-35600100-1331758400.jpg????

My guess is that this occurred in the late 80's to early 90's - anybody have medals and docs to narrow this down?

[JapanX]

I wonder what rosette our colleague Pieter received with his sacred treasure order back in 1983

Not to mention that Pieter is a cavalier of 3rd class rising sun order :)

Edited March 14, 2012 by JapanX

[Dieter3]

I wonder what rosette our colleague Pieter received with his sacred treasure order back in 1983

I'm very interested to know! Something else I'm wondering about, and maybe he can tell us - or somebody else too - I've seen lapel rosettes in the small boxes and I've wondered if this how they are given to the recipient, or if the boxes were replacement rosettes? I mean, do the rosettes simply get stuffed into the presentation case, because they usually are a poor fit for this!!

[pieter1012]

Hi Nick and Dieter,

Both the lapel rosettes for my Sacred Treasure (1983) and Rising Sun (1992) came with the big old style lapel rosette. These were provided loose in the presentation case, so not seperately boxed. When the change to the pinstyle occurred, I don't know. At one point they have also become much smaller, more in line with the current rosettes for European orders. I have been to a presentation ceremony of the Rising Sun at the Japanese Embassy here in 2006 and the lapel rosette was the new small pinstyle version. But I think the change occurred earlier.

The replacement rosettes come indeed in small white carton boxes. I ordered a replacement rosette (old style) for my Rising Sun, as a spare just in case I would misplace the one I received with the order, and this came in such a box.

Pieter

[JapanX]

Hi Nick and Dieter,

Both the lapel rosettes for my Sacred Treasure (1983) and Rising Sun (1992) came with the big old style lapel rosette. These were provided loose in the presentation case, so not seperately boxed. When the change to the pinstyle occurred, I don't know. At one point they have also become much smaller, more in line with the current rosettes for European orders. I have been to a presentation ceremony of the Rising Sun at the Japanese Embassy here in 2006 and the lapel rosette was the new small pinstyle version. But I think the change occurred earlier.

The replacement rosettes come indeed in small white carton boxes. I ordered a replacement rosette (old style) for my Rising Sun, as a spare just in case I would misplace the one I received with the order, and this came in such a box.

Pieter

Thank you very much Pieter for this info!

As for the watershed between lapel and safe pin style rosettes ...

I think that the final change occurred in 2003.

But when these safe-pin style rosettes occurred for the first time?

I guess Dieter dating was based on red cross orders rosettes

Personally I've never seen a documented red cross order with safe pin rosette inside the box...

Regards,

Nick

[Paul L Murphy]

Thank you very much Pieter for this info!

As for the watershed between lapel and safe pin style rosettes ...

I think that the final change occurred in 2003.

But when these safe-pin style rosettes occurred for the first time?

I guess Dieter dating was based on red cross orders rosettes

Personally I've never seen a documented red cross order with safe pin rosette inside the box...

Regards,

Nick

Hopefully in November I should be able to advise if the safe pin rosette comes with the modern Red Cross order since I will be awarded the Gold Merit Cross.

[Dieter3]

Hi Nick and Dieter,

Both the lapel rosettes for my Sacred Treasure (1983) and Rising Sun (1992) came with the big old style lapel rosette. These were provided loose in the presentation case, so not seperately boxed. When the change to the pinstyle occurred, I don't know. At one point they have also become much smaller, more in line with the current rosettes for European orders. I have been to a presentation ceremony of the Rising Sun at the Japanese Embassy here in 2006 and the lapel rosette was the new small pinstyle version. But I think the change occurred earlier.

The replacement rosettes come indeed in small white carton boxes. I ordered a replacement rosette (old style) for my Rising Sun, as a spare just in case I would misplace the one I received with the order, and this came in such a box.

Pieter

Excellent info! Thank you!

As for the watershed between lapel and safe pin style rosettes ...

I think that the final change occurred in 2003.

But when these safe-pin style rosettes occurred for the first time?

I guess Dieter dating was based on red cross orders rosettes

Personally I've never seen a documented red cross order with safe pin rosette inside the box...

Regards,

Nick

I think 2003 would have been when the size changed - the new Sacred Teasures are definitely smaller - but the the slightly older ones like in the photo above is not a small one, just has the clutch. So these must have been the immediate predecessors, no earlier than perhaps 1992! (unless they were mixing two types in same years, but I doubt it.)

Na, can't date the Red Cross ones this way either! You see the same medals in the modern cases with either type of button. Good chance they followed a similar timeline.

[JapanX]

Hopefully in November I should be able to advise if the safe pin rosette comes with the modern Red Cross order since I will be awarded the Gold Merit Cross.

I bet that it will come with the safe pin rosette made in silver

But the real deal will be the doc and the order!

Cheers,

Nick

[JapanX]

I think 2003 would have been when the size changed - the new Sacred Teasures are definitely smaller - but the the slightly older ones like in the photo above is not a small one, just has the clutch. So these must have been the immediate predecessors, no earlier than perhaps 1992! (unless they were mixing two types in same years, but I doubt it.)

Hmmmm...

You see I have couple of ribbon medals in my collection, that was issued in late 90s and early 00s.

They all have typical old style pin bow rosettes

And we all know that in 2003 these medals got small safe pin rosettes.

Cheers,

Nick