AlecH Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Bought a mainly German medal convolute last week, it was a all or nothing deal. One of the pieces bought is a Romanian Loyalty Service Cross with presentation case. Knowing hardly next to nothing about Romanian medals, I looked through medal sales internet sites for some background information and valuation prices. I found on "marksmedals.com" a small write-up stating - Romanian Loyalty Service Cross 1937 - 47 - 2nd Model, 2nd Class, however no price. Interestingly the write-up was taken from David Littlejohn's book " Foreign Legion of the Third Reich" which made me the wonder over the reasons and conditions behind awarding the medal, could it be from the Romanian government to Romanian soldiers fighting along side or inside German Wehrmacht units. If members have any further in-depth information and price range. I would be pleased to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlecH Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 Presentation Case - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Hallo Alec, Very nice set you found. It appears to be the II Class, (silver) version, and yours also comes with the monogram of King Michael* of Romania so possibly a late war award. (*Still alive and living in Romania.) This Romanian military cross was frequently awarded to the German non.Commissioned ranks during WW2. Usually for merit, as were German medal awards to Romanian soldiers serving alongside or in Romania. In my honest opinion a cased version in good condition complete with original ribbon, outside of Romania, is worth between 85 to 110 euro, but could fetch more depending on demand. Kevin in Deva. :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlecH Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 Thanks Kevin, For the post and information, the price list is a great help. However its still unclear to me, what exactly the award, qualifying criteria was, was it based on a time serviced scale ? after all there were three medals in the group? for bravery ? or a good performance? Could I ask, do you know how many Romanian different medal awards were given to the German forces?. I know of three, the one at the thread start, crusade against communism medal and a manufulness and loyalty 2nd Class with swords medal. Do you know to other ones ? if yes, could you post a list of them. I've included two pictures of a mixed ribbon bar and a mixed medal bar. Ribbon Bar - Austria Medal - Czech Medal - Romanian Loyalty Award - Romanian Crusade against Communism Medal, Medal Bar - Romanian Crusade against Communism - Ost Medal - Silver Romanian Manfulness and Loyalty Class 2 with Swords Medal. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) Thanks Kevin, For the post and information, the price list is a great help. However its still unclear to me, what exactly the award, qualifying criteria was, was it based on a time serviced scale ? after all there were three medals in the group? for bravery ? or a good performance? Could I ask, do you know how many Romanian different medal awards were given to the German forces?. I know of three, the one at the thread start, crusade against communism medal and a manufulness and loyalty 2nd Class with swords medal. Do you know to other ones ? if yes, could you post a list of them. I've included two pictures of a mixed ribbon bar and a mixed medal bar. Ribbon Bar - Austria Medal - Czech Medal - Romanian Loyalty Award - Romanian Crusade against Communism Medal, Medal Bar - Romanian Crusade against Communism - Ost Medal - Silver Romanian Manfulness and Loyalty Class 2 with Swords Medal. Regards Halo Alec, Known Royal Romanian awards presented to German and Axis Allies by Romania during WW2 start at the top with the Order of Mihai Vitezu / Michael the Brave, (its the highest award for bravery, similar to the British Victoria Cross.) Order of the Star of Romania, in various classes, I - V Order of the Crown of Romania, in various classes, I - V Order of Aeronautical Virtue, in various classes, Medal of Aeronautical Virtue. Medal for Bravery and Loyalty (with swords), aka Manhood & Loyalty, I, II, III Class Crusade against Communism Medal, Cross / Medal of Faithful Service, I, II, III on the (1938 war ribbon) , the award criteria depending on the type of award could be for an act of bravery, military merit, the person chosen could be a German soldier deemed worthy by the Romanian's, or the awarding of the medal could be left to the Germans to pick the recipient, he would receive a Brevet / Urkunde both in German and Romanian and the details would be recorded in his pay-book. Romanian awards were given to German Army, Airforce & Navy. The mini ribbon bar is interesting as it shows the two Romanian awards with what appears to be the large Romanian issue ribbon, the Germans began to manufacture their own examples which were smaller in width and more suitable for their ribbon bars. The large size bar for a German I would imagine the precedence is slightly out of line with German Regulations, in my opinion possibly a Romanian medal bar?, in which the soldier wears the awards has he receives them into his hand, if a German bar I would imagine more than just a "Frozen Flesh" medal would there at least a KVK as well if not and EK II. Kevin in Deva. :beer: Edited March 24, 2012 by Kev in Deva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlecH Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Quite a list there Kevin, I've totted up 17 plus medals given on your list. It would be a wonderful thing to see pictorial evidence i.e. German / Romanian medal bars or period pictures of German soldiers wearing them, not that I doubt your list for a moment. One thing not mentioned that I would like to take the opportunity to write about, a collecting interest of many collectors - the bars of Crusade against Communism medal. Littlejohn writes in his book "Legions of the Third Reich" that there are 14 different bars without giving any source material, I show a picture of 11 bars would you have any material on the other three? Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Cased Decoration/Document Grouping Awarded to German Cross in Gold Recipient Luftwaffe Oberleutnant Dieter Ritter von Klipstein. This grouping of awards and decorations was awarded to Luftwaffe Flak Artillery Officer Oberleutnant Dieter Ritter von Klipstein who served with the Luftwaffe forces in Rumania. The following awards and documents are included in the grouping: 1. German Cross in Gold w/Document. Cross is maker-marked, "20" (C.F. Zimmermann) and grades Near MINT with no damage to the swastika enamel. Document shows light age with minor tears to edges and has been folded. Document is complete with facsimile of Göring's signature and is dated, "2. Dezember 1942". Cross is also complete with interim award document. 2. Promotion Document to Leutnant. Document shows light age with minor tears to edges and has been folded. Document is complete with facsimile of Göring's signature and dated, "8. November 1938". Exc+ 3. 1939 Iron Cross 1st Class. Cross is maker-marked, "26" (B.H. Mayer) grading Near MINT with minor specks of patina to silver frame and no loss of enamel to the iron center. 4. Medal Bar w/6 Decorations. Decorations are parade mounted with red felt backing and complete with attaching pin. Ribbons and medals grade Near MINT with no wear and virtually no age to fabric or medals. The following decorations are included on the medal bar: a. 1939 Iron Cross 2nd Class. b. Russian Front Medal w/Document. Document shows minor age and has been folded and dated, "23. Sept. 1942". c. Royal Bulgarian Order of Military Merit w/Cross, War Decoration, and War Decoration Ribbon w/Interim Document. Document shows light wear/age and has been folded. Is signed and dated, "3. März 1943". d. Royal Rumanian Order of the Star of Rumania w/Swords, Knight Grade w/o Document. e. Royal Rumanian Order of the Cross of Rumania with Swords, Knight Grade w/Documents. Documents include the formal Rumanian document and two interim documents as well as the German interim document, all showing light age/wear. f. Royal Rumanian Medal for the Crusade Against Communism w/Interim Document. Document shows only minor wear and is dated, "19. Juli 1943" and signed by the Unit Commander. 5. Commemorative Medal of 01 October 1938 w/Document. Medal and ribbon grade Near MINT/MINT with light age to award document dated, "9.10.1939" and signed by the unit commander. 6. Krim Shield w/Document. Bronze-colored shield grades MINT and is complete with Luftwaffe blue backing which has been removed from a uniform. Interim document shows age and is dated, "20. März 1943" and ink stamped with facsimile signature of Generalfeldmarschall von Manstein. 7. 1939 Wound Badge in Black w/Document. Badge shows wear to enamel primarily to swastika with age to document which has been folded and dated, "23. Sept. 1942" and signed by the unit commander. 8. Luftwaffe Anti-Aircraft Badge w/Document. Badge grades MINT and is maker-marked, "Bremer, Markneukirchen". Document shows light and has been folded and dated, "26. Juli 1941" and hand-signed by Generalleutnant Speidel, Commander of the Luftwaffe mission in Rumania. 9. Luftwaffe Ground Combat Badge w/Document. Badge grades Near MINT and document shows light age. Has been folded and is dated, "30. Sept. 1942" and hand-signed by Generalleutnant Steudemann, Div-Kommander (Flak). In addition to the above awards and documents, the grouping includes a MINT gilt Bulgarian Air Force Pilot's badge as well as a metal Luftwaffe breast eagle. Entire grouping is complete with a postwar black leatherette case with a storage compartment under the padded interior lid for the documents and with the lower portion of the case fitted to hold all of the awards and documents. Superb Luftwaffe awards/document grouping recently obtained in Germany! Also:- During WWII, the 1st class (1941 model) was only awarded to the following foreigners: 1. Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering: 1st, 2nd and 3rd classes by Royal Decree no. 2868/14 October 1941 2. Admiral Erich Raeder: 1st, 2nd and 3rd classes by Royal Decree no. 2868/14 October 1941 3. Generalfeldmarschall Braucshitsch: 1st, 2nd and 3rd classes by Royal Decree no. 2868/14 October 1941 4. Generalfeldmarschall Wilhelm Keitel: 1st, 2nd and 3rd classes by Royal Decree no. 2868/14 October 1941 5. Generalfeldmarschall von Rundstedt: 1st class by Royal Decree no. 2550/1 September 1942 (CO Army Group West) 6. Generalfeldmarschall von Bock: 1st class by Royal Decree no. 2550/1 September 1942 (CO Army Group South) 7. Generaloberst Ewald von Kleist: 1st and 2nd classes by Royal Decree no. 3034/6 October 1942 (CO 1st Panzer Army) Crusade Against Communism Battle Bars List:- 1. AZOV 2. BASARABIA 3. BUCOVINA 4. BUG 5. CAUCAZ 6. CRIMEA also to be found as CRIMEEA and CRIMEIA 7. CALMUCIA also to be found as KALMUCEA 8. DOBROGEA 9. DONET 10. DNJESTR (for Germans?) 11. MAREA NEAGRA also to be found as MARE NEGRU (for Germans?) 12. NIPRU 13. NISTRU 14. ODESSA also to be found as ODESSA 15. STALINGRAD 17 PRUT. Kevin in Deva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlecH Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 Thanks for the picture and the list, great convolute, it must be a highlight in someone's collection. I can't help feeling you may have some unofficial bars on your bar list i.e. Stalingrad, Calmucia never seen them or any paperwork on them. I did looking through the internet come across a German artillery general Hans Speth, has quite a number of foreign medal awards amongst them four Romanian ones - His awards Prussian Iron Cross II Kl w/ Spange Eastern Front Medal Hesse Bravery Medal Honour Cross w/ Swords Wehrmacht Long Service 18 Year Wehrmacht Long Service 4 Year Spanish Order of Military Merit Bulgarian Commemorative Medal w/ Swords Romanian Order of Michael the Brave III Kl Romanian Order of the Crown w/ Swords- Grand Cross Romanian Order of the Star- Grand Cross Romanian Crusade Against Communism Medal Italian Silver Bravery Medal Albanian Order of Skanderbeg However, I never did find a picture of a German soldier wearing the medal at the start of this thread, perhaps one day, again thanks for your impute. Best Wishes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 (edited) Hallo Alec, patience young grasshopper, I am busy searching for a picture of your S.C. Cross being worn by a German, I know I have seen one somewhere, and I also have this particular cross mounted German style on a single spange that I picked up many moons ago in Kempten, Allgäu at a Floh-makt. It makes sense that all Romanian war time awards would be presentable inter-Axis so to say, in the spirit of fostering good friendship amongst the militaries, the same for German WW2 awards such as the E.K., KVK, Krim Shield, Frozen Flesh medal etc..etc.. I believe the S.C. Cross or even medal would have been issued too a non-commissioned rank. Some of the Romanian battle bars mentioned above are extremely rare and the possibility exists some were never awarded to German troops, so no Urkunde, many Romanian Brevets / Urkunde were shredded immediately the Romanians went over to the Soviets, possession of such incriminating anti-communist paperwork could get one shot out of hand or sent to one of the immediate post war re-education camps that were set up by the Soviet influenced Romanian Communist Party in the early R.P.R. Period. The "Stalingrad" bar was thought by many collectors here in Romania to be a fantasy until a picture emerged of a Romanian Pilot wearing one:- http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2012/post-950-0-35021900-1332762495.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2012/post-950-0-23304000-1332762513.jpg please note he also has the ribbon for the German Iron Cross II Class (position 4) and German Frozen Flesh medal (position 5.) Kevin in Deva. :beer: Edited March 26, 2012 by Kev in Deva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Well, I'll throw in a few photos. Many Crusade medals groups i have seen often earned a Krim shield. I have always wondered if the Romanians got the shield as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 The typical German with a Crusade medal. I have seen docs that awarded the medal up to the last week before the Romanians switched sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 A typical medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) The Romanian's were awarded the KRIM shield, for sure,as I have the award Urkunde to a Romanian soldier obtained direct from a family friend here in Romania. The Romanian Armoured Car Battalion T-38 consisting of the 51st, 52nd, and 53rd independent companies, 15 Pzkpfw 38 (f) tanks each, and five tanks kept in the battalion reserve, subordinate to the 2nd Armoured Car Regiment, also served in KUBAN, at the Taman bridgehead, so its very possible they were authorised the German KUBAN Shield. Some of these personnel later went on to serve in the Kerch Peninsular also at Eltigen and Perekop Isthmus, by April 1944 they had withdrawn towards Sevastopol and were evacuated to Romania by sea in Mid-May 1944. Kevin in Deva. :beer: Edited March 27, 2012 by Kev in Deva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 With regards the Crusade Against Communism medal, many Germans preferred the medal to be mounted backwards showing the sword in the design as opposed to the profile of the woman, this observation is backed-up by many period pictures showing the medal in question. Kevin in Deva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlecH Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 Nice pictures Kevin of Manstein & co. The Romanian awards are I expect a class above mine at the start of the thread. Looking through your post No.9 - Romanian Pilot Awards - EK ribbon bar - I see, Ost Medal ribbon bar - I see, Stalingrad Bar - No ( not a single letter) Yesterday I did look through Romanian Military History Forum, they do have a somewhat shambolic nine page thread dealing with these bars, I noticed you had contributed a number of posts to the thread. The exact two Romanian pilot pictures you posted on this thread, were there (maybe yours came from the thread) the poster asked - Gents, This looks to me like the famous "STALINGRAD" bar in wear. What do you think ? Alex No-one answered his question - its clear, impossible to answer, the photo definition is not good enough. Despite a number of requests for a picture of the Stalingrad bar, this was the only allegedly pictorial evidence offered on the whole of the nine page thread, its not strong enough. Until better pictures come along the Stalingrad bar must stay in the realm of fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I had forgotten about pic#4! I filed it under weddings. Yeah- all my German pics show the sword front outwards. Kev- do you have any contacts with Romanian WW2 vets who got the medal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Hallo Alex, Admittedly the "STALINGRAD" bar picture suffers definition loss when blown up, however, the letters (to my eyes) S T A - I N - - A D can be made out, Add that to the fact there is no other Romanian battle bar ending in the letter "D" convinces me that such a bar did indeed exist, add that to the fact that the person wearing the bar was in the Romanian Airforce and was in all likelihood one of the lucky ones able to escape the encirclement, unlike many of the Romanian ground troops. But, if you are in doubt of course you can wait until better documentary evidence comes to light. Kevin in Deva. Edited March 27, 2012 by Kev in Deva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Here is a picture of a Romanian bar in the Romanian Military Museum it shows 5 battle-bars:- Kevin in Deva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev in Deva Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Clear to see the names:- NISTRU NIPRU AZOV MAREA NEAGRA CRIMEIA Kevin in Deva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlecH Posted March 27, 2012 Author Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Hi Kevin, How your can make out seven letters on the bar from such a poor, poor picture - well its completely beyond me! perhaps we could find you a job at Bletchley Park, nevertheless the medal bar pictures are welcome, but the best picture of all, would be a German medal bar with a King Michael Loyalty Medal 2nd Class with Swords medal,as shown at the start. Alec Edited March 27, 2012 by AlecH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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