Lion101 Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hello, I hope that I am posting in the right area but I was given these insignia and I was told that they are from the 1960s and 1970s. I know that they are Turkish but would anyone happen to know what they are for? Also, I have the patch to right in two sizes, but why would they come in two different sizes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfdenizyaran Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hi , The size difference might be for using on different uniforms, small and elegant ones might be used on green jacket, big and crude ones might be for the camouflage. The one with two stars is for a division in İstanbul. These are usually made from metal and carried on jacket chest. This may be an arm pach, if that its rare. What is the size of it? In old days even brigades had their own in insignias that were carried on uniforms. It is too difficult to id them now. Demirhan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hi , The size difference might be for using on different uniforms, small and elegant ones might be used on green jacket, big and crude ones might be for the camouflage. The one with two stars is for a division in İstanbul. These are usually made from metal and carried on jacket chest. This may be an arm pach, if that its rare. What is the size of it? In old days even brigades had their own in insignias that were carried on uniforms. It is too difficult to id them now. Demirhan. Hello, I was told that the one with the two stars belong to the Bosphorous District? Is that Army Division? or Maybe the Gendarmerie? The Patch is 3 inches long and 2 1/2. Which screams arm patch to me. Do you know what other patch is? Because I also have one with the words " Jandarama Komando" on it but I seem others with no words on it at all, what are the differences? Also the Komando patch is 1 1/2 inches wide and 1 1/4 inches long but I have another Komando patch that is almost 2 inches long and 2 1/3 inches wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfdenizyaran Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hi, That is a classic view of Bosphorus. But I do not know which division. Dont think its Jandarma. The patch is a very good find in my opinion, because they were short lived. I believe they wre replaced with metal ones that were carried hanging from left chest pocket button. Good find! The other one is a commando badge. Both army and jardarma have commando units, they use the same badge. Shape is still the same. Yours may be different from eachother because of different producers. This still happens. Can you post a picture of them side by side, Im just curious. Where are you from? Demirhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hi, That is a classic view of Bosphorus. But I do not know which division. Dont think its Jandarma. The patch is a very good find in my opinion, because they were short lived. I believe they wre replaced with metal ones that were carried hanging from left chest pocket button. Good find! The other one is a commando badge. Both army and jardarma have commando units, they use the same badge. Shape is still the same. Yours may be different from eachother because of different producers. This still happens. Can you post a picture of them side by side, Im just curious. Where are you from? Demirhan Hello, Thank you for I.D. that patch. I am guessing from the 1960s? Here is the photo of the Commando patches like you requested. What do you think? I am from the usa, and it is so hard to find anything on Turkish Militaria here. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfdenizyaran Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Mark, About the patch, Im guessing older than mid 1960's. Very good find, even in Turkey these things are rare but, I hope I can express myself good, Im trying to give all non Turkish collectors an idea about the situation here (nothing to do with what you have): Even though there is a verrrry small market for Tr militaria here, there are lots of sellers asking huge amouts of money for what they sell, without having any idea of what they sell. Recently one seller was asking 277$ equivalent for a jacket, throusers and an overcoat from late 1940s. I bought same era 2 jackets , 2 throusers and an overcoat for 22$ in the middle of the capital city!!! I hate when they treat people like that. This makes it difficult to put a value on what we have. I envy militaria collectors in the US, you guys get the best Turkish equipment for amazing prices. I have seen Ottoman bayonets on sale online from US, they are in perfect condition, you can find shiny Ottoman bayonets for 50$. Here they try to sell you a dug-up (relic) bayo for 400$ I hope you are not trying to get an idea of what that patch is worth. In my opinion It is rare , very rare , has lots of sentimental value and thats all it matters. About the commando patches, they are not new, not old as the arm patch but old. Printed on leather like material, 1970-1980's maybe. I only collect equipment and clothes that were used in Tr military. My only exception is two sets of USMC ribbon bars, 6 ribbons in total, belonging to a Marine who served in Viet Nam and received Purple Heart. I bought them because of my respect. They have sentimental value. I hope I make sense above. Demirhan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Share Posted June 9, 2012 Mark, About the patch, Im guessing older than mid 1960's. Very good find, even in Turkey these things are rare but, I hope I can express myself good, Im trying to give all non Turkish collectors an idea about the situation here (nothing to do with what you have): Even though there is a verrrry small market for Tr militaria here, there are lots of sellers asking huge amouts of money for what they sell, without having any idea of what they sell. Recently one seller was asking 277$ equivalent for a jacket, throusers and an overcoat from late 1940s. I bought same era 2 jackets , 2 throusers and an overcoat for 22$ in the middle of the capital city!!! I hate when they treat people like that. This makes it difficult to put a value on what we have. I envy militaria collectors in the US, you guys get the best Turkish equipment for amazing prices. I have seen Ottoman bayonets on sale online from US, they are in perfect condition, you can find shiny Ottoman bayonets for 50$. Here they try to sell you a dug-up (relic) bayo for 400$ I hope you are not trying to get an idea of what that patch is worth. In my opinion It is rare , very rare , has lots of sentimental value and thats all it matters. About the commando patches, they are not new, not old as the arm patch but old. Printed on leather like material, 1970-1980's maybe. I only collect equipment and clothes that were used in Tr military. My only exception is two sets of USMC ribbon bars, 6 ribbons in total, belonging to a Marine who served in Viet Nam and received Purple Heart. I bought them because of my respect. They have sentimental value. I hope I make sense above. Demirhan. Hello Demirhan, Well, I paid $5 for the patches., I know in the states that a lot of Turkish items get push off to the side. It is amazing for some of things go for. Unless they are orders, medals, or swords. You can get a lot of Post Ottoman items for next to nothing. I am most likely going to hand on to them. Maybe make a small display, I do have a Turkish Helmet from the 1980s. I know one seller who have an 1980s turkish uniform for $7.00 for sale with all it's insignia still on it. Thank you for the information on the market, I did not know the market was like that in Turkey. Here I was thinking that the market for such items were cheaper in Turkey. Do you have anymore information about the commando patches? They are different sizes because different makers? or is it something else? Sorry, I know that I am like a little kid asking so many questions but this is a new field for me which have no references as well. P.S. How easy is it to find any WW2 Turkish items because in the States, I have yet to seem any? Thank you for all the information so far. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfdenizyaran Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 WW2 Turkish uniforms are very rare. If im not wrong model was changed in 1946 and those can be found. Lots of foreign (mostly US) WW2 and KW equipment here, mostly came after the wars as military aid. About the helmet, is it M1? or Tommy Mk2? Size and model difference might be due to producers or to be used on different unifoms; some to be used in the field the other colorful ones for daily uniforms?? But I am not sure. Yours both look ok to me. Below is a picture that shows the use of a version of red-blue commando badge Durmus Ali Teke 1976-1996 KIA Turkish made equipments are difficult to date, since most of them dont have any manufacturers info on them.Lots of picture digging and thinking is required to date items. I have some British canteens, I know they were used during WW2 by Turkish Military, I have seen pictures. I have US canteens with leather shoulder straps, I know they came post WW2 pre KW. At that time we were still using leather belts , İt wasnt possible to hang US equipment. Demirhan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 WW2 Turkish uniforms are very rare. If im not wrong model was changed in 1946 and those can be found. Lots of foreign (mostly US) WW2 and KW equipment here, mostly came after the wars as military aid. About the helmet, is it M1? or Tommy Mk2? Size and model difference might be due to producers or to be used on different unifoms; some to be used in the field the other colorful ones for daily uniforms?? But I am not sure. Yours both look ok to me. Below is a picture that shows the use of a version of red-blue commando badge Durmus Ali Teke 1976-1996 KIA Turkish made equipments are difficult to date, since most of them dont have any manufacturers info on them.Lots of picture digging and thinking is required to date items. I have some British canteens, I know they were used during WW2 by Turkish Military, I have seen pictures. I have US canteens with leather shoulder straps, I know they came post WW2 pre KW. At that time we were still using leather belts , İt wasnt possible to hang US equipment. Demirhan. Hello, What would be the cost of one of those 1946 uniforms? I also would not mind seeing some photos of the equipment that were being worn by the Turkish soldiers. The helmet is neither the British Tommy or M1. It was originally a west german helmet. I notice that the photo said KIA at the bottom. Was Durmus killed when he was fighting the Kurdish Rebels? KW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfdenizyaran Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 1946 uniforms can be found 100-150$ But with good connections can be found cheaper. To give you some idea, WW2 officers uniform was : Officer pre-1933: Officers post WW2: Enlisted uniforms were similar. I ve seen W German helmets here, interesting system, M1 shape with leather liner? KW Korean war, US M-1951 system clothes can be found here in good shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Regarding the commando qualifications, here are three variants: My understanding is that the patches are mountain commando qualifications. There are variations because they can be issued not only by the Eğirdir Mountain Commando School and Training Center (Eğirdir Dağ Komando Okulu ve Eğitim Merkez Komutanlığı), but also by training course run in certain mountain and commando units (Dağ ve Komando Birlikleri). I think the scorpion in the corner of your patch might represent one of these units. From what I understand, and I may be wrong, the first one above is a basic mountain warfare qualification, and the other two are mountain commando versions, with the bottom one being Jandarma, as Demirhan noted. I have also seen another version which reads "DAĞCI KOMANDO". There is another commando qualification, for airborne commandos (Paraşütçü Komandolar). Here are two versions, with a regular airborne qualification for comparison (hava indirme means "airborne"). http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2012/post-432-0-07254400-1339384023.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2012/post-432-0-94692200-1339384450.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2012/post-432-0-20728100-1339384034.jpg Special Forces (Özel Kuvvetleri) have their own qualfication badge. I only have a more recent (1990s) metal version, but there are versions in other materials: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfdenizyaran Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Hello, Here are links to two pictures that were taken in Istanbul, during US Navy 6th Fleet's visit in early 1960s. In this picture the use of arm patch can be seen, it is for the 1st Army.: http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/231057702b9d045c_large Same date.Check out the flag that partially can be seen: http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/96f96980453f41b7_large Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 1946 uniforms can be found 100-150$ But with good connections can be found cheaper. To give you some idea, WW2 officers uniform was : Officer pre-1933: Officers post WW2: Enlisted uniforms were similar. I ve seen W German helmets here, interesting system, M1 shape with leather liner? KW Korean war, US M-1951 system clothes can be found here in good shape. Hello, Thank you for those photos. It is amazing how little resources exist on the Turkish Armed Forces during that period. The helmet does have a M1 shape liner but I have to look at it to see if it does have a leather liner but I think it is a cloth liner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 Regarding the commando qualifications, here are three variants: My understanding is that the patches are mountain commando qualifications. There are variations because they can be issued not only by the Eğirdir Mountain Commando School and Training Center (Eğirdir Dağ Komando Okulu ve Eğitim Merkez Komutanlığı), but also by training course run in certain mountain and commando units (Dağ ve Komando Birlikleri). I think the scorpion in the corner of your patch might represent one of these units. From what I understand, and I may be wrong, the first one above is a basic mountain warfare qualification, and the other two are mountain commando versions, with the bottom one being Jandarma, as Demirhan noted. I have also seen another version which reads "DAĞCI KOMANDO". There is another commando qualification, for airborne commandos (Paraşütçü Komandolar). Here are two versions, with a regular airborne qualification for comparison (hava indirme means "airborne"). http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2012/post-432-0-07254400-1339384023.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2012/post-432-0-94692200-1339384450.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_06_2012/post-432-0-20728100-1339384034.jpg Special Forces (Özel Kuvvetleri) have their own qualfication badge. I only have a more recent (1990s) metal version, but there are versions in other materials: Hello Thank you for the extra information. You would think that something like this would be posted on the Turkish Armed Forces website but I guess not. I was told that scorpion for those soldiers who were both in the gendarme commando and army mountain commando brigade. However if this badge is for the Mountain commando then what does the commando qualification badge look like or do they not have one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 Hello, Here are links to two pictures that were taken in Istanbul, during US Navy 6th Fleet's visit in early 1960s. In this picture the use of arm patch can be seen, it is for the 1st Army.: http://www.gstatic.c...02b9d045c_large Same date.Check out the flag that partially can be seen: http://www.gstatic.c...0453f41b7_large Thank you for the photos. Would you happen to know where that second photo came from? Is that an honor guard division or something? Because it's seem like the insignia on the flag matches the one on my patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share Posted June 17, 2012 Thank you for what you all have posted so far but does anyone have anymore information on the insignia or the Turkish Armed Forces over all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfdenizyaran Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Both pics were taken in Istanbul, Turkish general in beige uniform was commander of the 1st Army , which had the headquaeters in Istanbul. Division's honor guard is wellcoming the US Admiral. I had recently seen a medallion which was inscribed "3rd Commando Brigade Command" which had a scorpion at the center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share Posted June 17, 2012 Both pics were taken in Istanbul, Turkish general in beige uniform was commander of the 1st Army , which had the headquaeters in Istanbul. Division's honor guard is wellcoming the US Admiral. I had recently seen a medallion which was inscribed "3rd Commando Brigade Command" which had a scorpion at the center. So each division have an honor guard? I am guessing? The medallion did it have the same scorpion as on the patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfdenizyaran Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I guess even smaller units have honor guards. I dont think it was the same scorpion, your badge is old, but what i saw was new. Maybe the design changed in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 I guess even smaller units have honor guards. I dont think it was the same scorpion, your badge is old, but what i saw was new. Maybe the design changed in years. Well, that could be it. Ok, here is a dumb question? I hear these insignia being called the Mountain Commando insignia? What is the different between the just the Commando insignia and the Commando insignia? Is it just the wording? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Well, that could be it. Ok, here is a dumb question? I hear these insignia being called the Mountain Commando insignia? What is the different between the just the Commando insignia and the Commando insignia? Is it just the wording? I am sorry, I should had said the Mountain Commando Insignia and the Commando insignia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Danner Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I assume you are referring to the badges with the mountain above crossed rifles with a wreath. For these, yes, I believe it is just the wording. They are all commando qualifications in mountain and commando units (Dağ ve Komando Birlikleri). I thought which don't say KOMANDO at all are different, meaning only a more basic mountain warfare course and not the full commando course, but they may just be a variant. DAĞCI KOMANDO is probably just a variant, as "dağcı" just means mountaineer. And, of course, the ones saying JANDARMA are different, but only because they are for gendarmerie commando units. The ones with the parachute are a different type of commando, an airborne commando. I do not believe mountain commandos are typically airborne-qualified. As I showed, these exist with and without the actual word "KOMANDO" appearing. Regular airborne badges also exist with and without the text "HAVA İNDIRME". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion101 Posted June 30, 2012 Author Share Posted June 30, 2012 Thank you everyone for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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