Identification of old Lee Enfield

[Elliot]

Please can anyone help me identify which No. / Mark / date the Lee Enfield shown on the attached picture is, as it is only marked 'L.S.A. Co. Ld. LE 1' - is it the No. 1 prior to any revisions ? Apart from Proof marks and '303' there is a small Crown with a 'V' beneath, another small crown with a divided circle (?) beneath and another small mark which is not discernable, and '356?' over an 'A'

This is a deactivated sport converted rifle, not in particularly good condition, and has a silver plate in the butt bearing a Crest / Coat of Arms and engraved 'A. Norton Harper Esq. / From English Club / Lourenco Marques / 1906' which I have researched and which has an interesting history of its own :-

Major Alfred George Montague Norton-Harper. Kings Own Lancaster Regiment
attached 4th Nigeria Regiment. Killed in action 16-10-1917 East Africa. Buried
Dar Es Salaam War Cemetery Tanzania, Plot 6 Row H Grave 7. Major Norton-Harper,
aged 42, the only son of Richard and Charlotte Norton-Harper, of 2 Eldon
Villas, Clevedon, was killed in East Africa. He served with the King’s

Own Royal Lancaster Regiment during the Boer War, after which he was

appointed to repatriation work, and on completion of that, went to the British Consulate

at Lourenco Marques, Portuguese East Africa - now Maputo, capital of Mozambique.

Upon his return home he was seconded from his regiment as District
Commissioner in Nigeria. On the outbreak of war, being unable to rejoin his
regiment, he became attached to the 4th Nigeria Regiment and served in the
Cameroon’s. He refused the post of Political Officer to the Belgian forces, in
order to serve with the troops in the field. Also commemorated on the memorial
at St Andrew's and on the roll of honour at All Saints, Clevedon near Bristol.

Any help in clarifying the origin of this weapon would be appreciated.,

[terrylee]

Looks like a commercial version of the Long Lee Enfield Mk.I. Had it been the conversion of a military rifle it would have been dated. Further photos of the whole rifle would be of assistance. Its manufacture date would probably be during the late 1890s

[Kev in Deva]

L.S.A. = Lahore Small Arms ?

[terrylee]

London Small Arms Company. A private concern which operated from 1866 to 1925. It also produced Lee Enfields for the British Government, but such military contract rifles would have been marked with a crown and the date of manufacture as shown in the attached photos of slightly earlier and later L.S.A. rifles.

The rifle queried probably started off as a commercially produced version of the contemporary military pattern such as those sold to private individuals or colonial governments, etc. If so, it was sporterised at a later date. It is also possible that the rifle in question was originally produced by L.S.A. in sporting configuration. However, in that event the "I" indicating the Mk.I version would probably not have been shown. More detailed photos and one of the whole rifle would probably decide the matter.

[peter monahan]

The British Army began to use the "Lee series" rifles - my term - in 1888. The military rifle known as the "Magazine Lee-Enfield" was first produced in 1903 by LSA. Changes were made to accomodate the new smokeless powder and the new rifle referred to as the "Mk 1*" was made in 1906. Both were made under contract to the military by Birmingham Small Arms [aka "BSA", famous for motorcycles too], and RSAF Sparkbrook.

This would strongly suggest that a "I*" dated 1902 was a civilian model from the beginning and in fact appeared on the market ahead of the similar changes in its military cousins. Perhaps LSA's Mk I* even provided some of the inspiration for the Military version.

[terrylee]

Hi Peter,

Thank you for a very worthwhile post. Your theories are amongst the most interesting that I have encountered in my 40 years+ of collecting Lee Enfields. Upon what do you base them? What reference books do you use? I'd like to have a look at them myself. One is never too old to learn!

Actually, its quite amazing what new information can be picked up on the internet. I was always under the impression that the first smokeless propellent used by the British, cordite, was introduced in 1892 and that it was the Short Magazine Lee Endield which replaced the Magazine Lee Enfield in 1903.

Regards,

Terry

[theironduke1]

Hi Eliott.

I find this a very interesting post.

My grandfather, Charles Gage was the British Consul in Lourenco Marques at the same time. It is almost certain that he would have known of or even been friends with Norton-Harper. He too had been sent to East Africa by the British Colonial Office to assist in the repatriation of Chinese coolies who had been building the railway there. He had previously beeen in China himself and was in Tientsin during the Boxer Rebellion, serving with the Tientsin Volunteers. He had come to Mozambique in 1904. During the Great War, he was to serve with Lord Delamere's Horse in the East African Campaign and later in the South African Light Horse. He was wounded in a battle near Kilimanjaro in 1916 and repatriated to England. He must have recovered swiftly because we find him in Bilbao, Spain as British Naval Consul in 1917! He had many adventures there (including the capture of a German spy) and for his services to the crown, was awarded a sisal plantation in Tanganyka (Now Tanzania). He died there in 1944. I lived in Kenya, Rhodesia, Mozambique and later South Africa from the mid sixties to the early seventies and tramped over many of the locations that my grandfather had been.

[Elliot]

Thank you to all who have responded to my post, and further to terrylee's suggestion I now attach pictures of the complete rifle, the rear sight and the foresight, which is an addition to the original barrel.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-15289-0-55089200-1362589165.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-15289-0-99081800-1362590040.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-15289-0-91876600-1362590047.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-15289-0-62567300-1362590052.jpg

[terrylee]

Hi Elliot,

I have no doubt that your rifle was originally manufactured by L.S.A. as a sporter, the first by that company that I have come across. The typical characteristics of a Lee sporter are as follows:

1) Six round magazine.

2) Sporter style butt.

3) No machined recess for the rear part of the long range sight.

4) Express-style rear sight.

5) Sporting-style front sight.

Whereas (1) and (2) are easily attached to any Lee Enfield, (3) to (6) are built in characteristics of a sporting rifle. (3) is particularly distinctive.

I attach a photo of a similar Lee Enfield sporting rifle manufactured by the Birmingham Small Arms Company.

Regards,

Terry

[Harry the Mole]

I was always under the impression that the Rifle, Magazine, Lee Enfield Mk1 was actually adopted for military use in 1895. It was the Rifle No.1, Short, Magazine Lee Enfield Mk1 which was adopted in December 1902 - a completely different rifle from the earlier pattern. Many of the earlier long Lee Enfields were later converted to SMLE N0.1 Mk11(CNVD).

London Small Arms & Co had a reputation for high quality rifles - even the one's they made for the military. I own an Martini Henry Mk11 which was built by LSA for the miitary in 1888. This is quite a late date for a Mk11.

A simplified version of the SMLE was introduced in 1916 - the Mk111*. This didn't have the magazine cut-off and volley sights of the earlier Mk111. But examples made by LSA & Co AFTER 1916 do turn up with the volley sights and cut-off still in place.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Harry the Mole

[terrylee]

In support of Harry's post I attach photos of the rifles to which he referred. From top to bottom (In brief!):

(1) Magazine Lee Enfield Mk.I.

(2) Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mk.I.

(3) Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mk.II*. (Conversion of earlier Lee Metfords and Lee Enfields to

S.M.L.E. configuration)

(4) Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mk.III. (No.1 Mk.III)

(5) Short Magazine Lee Enfield Mk.III*. (No.1 Mk.III*) Slightly simplified verssion of the Mk.III

introduced in 1916 to speed up wartime production)

At the risk of appearing to be a little pedantic, I need to mention that the terms "No.1Mk.I" and "No.1 Mk.II" are technically incorrect. By the time that the No.1 nomenclature was introduced in the 1920s, the S.M.L.E.s Mk.I and II were obsolete and it was not officially applied to them.

[Harry the Mole]

Very nice examples Terry. I have always been a fan of the Lee Enfield. In my humble opinion - the finest bolt action military rifle ever made. I enclose a couple of views of my Enfield-made SMLE No.1 Mk111. This particular example was made in 1912. It was an absolute dog when I originally purchased it last year. I spent some time converting it back to full Mk111 status.

The P1907 bayonet pictured with it was one I found at a local car boot last year. It is November 1914 dated, and marked to 3rd Battalion Welsh Fusiliers.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-15217-0-79072100-1362685951.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-15217-0-77797000-1362685967.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2013/post-15217-0-67076700-1362686001.jpg

[Elliot]

Thank you once again to all who have responded to this post, with your information, and now having the benefit of referring to a copy of Ian Skennerton's book "The Lee Enfield Story" I am getting nearer to identifying this rifle - without doubt it is a derivitive of a Magazine Lee Enfield Mk 1, although how it evolved into its sporting configuration is still uncertain, but "terrylee's" suggestion that it was made as a sporter seems highly likely.

The dating of its manufacture is proving more elusive, however one clue is the 'V' beneath the crown on one of the proof markings which confines it to the Victorian era, therefore as the MLE Mk. 1 was first produced in November 1895 and Queen Victoria died in January 1901 it is almost certainly within this period.

The post from "theironduke1" is also interesting, I now attach a picture of the silver plate on the stock for your perusal.