unknown naval? uniform

[steelbonnet]

Hi, I need some help in identifying this uniform I just got from a costume department.

I is very well made from heavy natural coloured linen There are no official marks to be found anywhere but they may have been boiled off in many washes. There are also a few blue/white collars came with the uniform. Any help with what period and what Navy(?) this might be from would be much appreciated

Gordon

[peter monahan]

The style certainly looks as if it could be modelled on 19th century fashion. The fall front was standard in men's trousers throughout the first half of the century though apparently US Civil War era sailors were wearing fly front trousers, so the style may be earlier than the 1860s. Not sure exactly when that style of button came in but I want to say 1830-1840ish. The adjusting gusset and tie at the rear is also early 19th C or earlier.

The absence of any markings at all is a bit troubling. I would have expected something sewn in or drawn on in permanent ink, as sailors and soldiers were penalized for losing kit and tended to mark everything!

Some close up shots of the seams and inside construction would help but if they're machine stitched that puts them post 1860 which, with the early style, means a later construction in an earlier style, so they may be a well made costume or perhaps uniform for an historical site, long-running play or... who knows. Extra detail would help.

Peter

[steelbonnet]

Thanks for quick reply Peter, There is a name hand sewn behind collar. I'll get some more pics posted over the weekend. This is getting most interesting. Of to Google now.

Gordon

[Hugh]

With respect to the fall front: The US Navy wore this style blue trousers well into the 1970's. We called them "13 button blues" They were very inconvenient for hasty calls of nature. I've never seen the 13 button style on USN white trousers, but that only covers the 20th century.

[Mervyn Mitton]

One other point to consider - you say they came from a costume department - then perhaps they are costume for something

like HMS. Pinafore, the famous Gilbert and Sullivan comic opera about the Royal Navy - 1870's.

Very often the costumiers would obtain real uniforms - the famous company in London - whose name escapes me - used

to have original police uniforms from the 1850's - unfortunately, I was away when they were all sold off. Should this be their

origin tthen there are two possibilities - made-up or, genuine. Meervyn

[peter monahan]

Steelbonnet

A name in the collar is significant - see above for "Mark your kit, you horrible little man!"

I did think of 'new but looks old' but that's not my area of rudimentary competence, never mind expertise, so I let it go. I'm sure that the knowledge that he was preserving a long standing piece of naval history was small consolation to Hugh in a navel emergency.

Mervyn's point is also very good. I've seen many examples of genuine kit 'improved on' by theatrical and film costumers, often to the serious detriment of both authenticity and the survival of some really neat uniforms. Grrr! But that's another rant for another day.

Peter

[steelbonnet]

I've attached some more Pics. The main seams are all machined but all the button holes, eyelets etc are hand stitch with a heavy grade linen thread. I asked a dress maker her opinion which is that there is no evidence of any improvements or extra work having been done after initial manufacture. There is evidence that they have been cleaned and boiled many times.

I am now happy that they have not been altered since leaving which ever Navy. There has been a square lable below the collar see pic with name, alas long gone. Does this extra info help with identification. A correction, on inspection the name, J. GROAT, is written or stenciled with some sort on Indelible pencil or ink, in black

Gordon

[Odulf]

Here some photos of my unnamed white RN 1930s working rig jumper.

The material is very heavy, stiff (and uncomfortable) cotton.

A significant difference with Gordon's is the length and shape of the collar.

[peter monahan]

Gordon

I know a little of nineteenth century uniforms, as I have made a few copies myself [1812-15 period] and seen many more and the details in your second lot of photos certainly look as if they are from the last century, when hand sewing was still the norm. So that plus the multiple washings suggests to me either a repro. worn by a re-enactor [hobbyist or historic military site staff] or something from the second half of the 19th.

The combo. of machine and hand stitched is very very common for repro. costumes: long seams done by machine but details hand finished. Even 'museum quality' usually means that the invisible seams are machined and only the outside work hand done, so I'm tending to think that a good quality repro. is what you have. Very nice!

[steelbonnet]

Gordon

I know a little of nineteenth century uniforms, as I have made a few copies myself [1812-15 period] and seen many more and the details in your second lot of photos certainly look as if they are from the last century, when hand sewing was still the norm. So that plus the multiple washings suggests to me either a repro. worn by a re-enactor [hobbyist or historic military site staff] or something from the second half of the 19th.

The combo. of machine and hand stitched is very very common for repro. costumes: long seams done by machine but details hand finished. Even 'museum quality' usually means that the invisible seams are machined and only the outside work hand done, so I'm tending to think that a good quality repro. is what you have. Very nice!

Thanks for your help, I will optimistically opt for the late 19th century. The set came from a country town amature dramatic group's store. All the army and air force uniforms (WW1 and later) were all as right as rain or any alteration were very amature and obvious but would have looked good on stage. I think I'll list it on Ebay soon (ID-thesteelbonnet)

Gordon

[peter monahan]

Sounds reasonable. Good luck with the sale!

Peter