British Commanders/Boer war

[realitycheck]

Was the Earl Roberts that was involved in the Boer War the same Roberts who made the famous forced march to relieve Kandahar?

What was the Baron Chelmsfords role in the Boer war?Who did he replace or get replaced by?

thank you for looking

[Mervyn Mitton]

Realitycheck - I welcomed you to GMIC on your other post. Yes, we are talking of the same person. He was in command during the

2nd Afghan War - 1879-1881 and Kandahar was a distant outpost from the main army. The Royal Fusiliers were part of the garrison.

In order to relieve them, Roberts formed a special fast moving force and they marched to just ouutside of Kandahar. The Afghans

attacked his Force and the Garrison came-out and caught them in between. The garrison received the Kandahar Bar and the men who

forced-march received in addition the Kabul to Kandahar Star. Roberts was created an Earl and became the Commander in Chief during

the Boer War. People were genuinly fond of him and he was known as "Our Bobs" by nearly everyone.

Lt. General Chelmsford was a different case altogether. He came from a very prominent family - and eventually was made the Viceroy of India.

He did not take part in the Boer War - however, he was the commanding General during the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879.

The British had been fighting the 9th Kaffrarian War in the Eastern Cape in 1877/8 and he had both Battalions of the 24th Regiment of Foot.

Additionally, he was supported by Artillery and his personal bodyguard was a Squadron of the 1st. King's Dragoon Guards.

Natal was under permanent threat from the large forces of the Zulu King and it was thought with Chelmsford's troops + local forces and native

infantry, that it was the ideal time to bring King Cetywayo under control. We used an old and well tried method - we demanded that a

British Resident be appointed - he would be responsible for all matters involving Zulus - apart from local issues.

We were so determined to force this, that the ultimatum sent to the King did not allow time for a reply - and we declared war in January 1879.

I will not go into the short period of the War - it is well covered in our posts - however, we won and the King was sent into exile. From

the point of view of Chelmsford , he knew that London was not happy with him for losing at Isandlawana - it was the largest casualty level

for any war fought during this colonial period. He was therefore, expecting to be recalled and pushed his men hard to have everthing

settled before General Sir Garnet Wolseley was sent to replace him. They were far from friends and Wolseley was a 'pushy' man.

The general in the famous Gilbert and Sullivan comic opera - "The Pirates of Penzance" - "I am the very model of a modern major-general"

was a skit on him.

Chelmsford returned to the UK and with his connections was made the Viceroy of India - the highest colonial position.

I hope this helps you a little. Mervyn

[peter monahan]

Realithcheck

Yes, same fellow: "Field Marshal Frederick Sleigh Roberts, 1st Earl Roberts VC KG KP GCB OM GCSI GCIE VD PC (30 September 1832 – 14 November 1914) was a British soldier who was one of the most successful commanders of the 19th century. He served in the Indian rebellion, the Expedition to Abyssinia and the Second Anglo-Afghan War before leading British Forces to success in the Second Boer War. He also became the last Commander-in-Chief of the Forces before the post was abolished in 1904." [Wikipedia]

He was also the model for W.S. Gilberts' "Modern Major General" from the "Pirates of Penzance". A great warrior as well as a soldier, but with the flaws all of us have. There's quite a nice little essay on him by the Kipling Society, giving Kipling - who knew him personally - assessment of him as a general and prehaps explaining why 'Bobs' was so beloved of the common soldier. It's here: http://www.kipling.org.uk/rg_lordroberts_moore.htm

[realitycheck]

Realitycheck - I welcomed you to GMIC on your other post. Yes, we are talking of the same person. He was in command during the

2nd Afghan War - 1879-1881 and Kandahar was a distant outpost from the main army. The Royal Fusiliers were part of the garrison.

In order to relieve them, Roberts formed a special fast moving force and they marched to just ouutside of Kandahar. The Afghans

attacked his Force and the Garrison came-out and caught them in between. The garrison received the Kandahar Bar and the men who

forced-march received in addition the Kabul to Kandahar Star. Roberts was created an Earl and became the Commander in Chief during

the Boer War. People were genuinly fond of him and he was known as "Our Bobs" by nearly everyone.

Lt. General Chelmsford was a different case altogether. He came from a very prominent family - and eventually was made the Viceroy of India.

He did not take part in the Boer War - however, he was the commanding General during the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879.

The British had been fighting the 9th Kaffrarian War in the Eastern Cape in 1877/8 and he had both Battalions of the 24th Regiment of Foot.

Additionally, he was supported by Artillery and his personal bodyguard was a Squadron of the 1st. King's Dragoon Guards.

Natal was under permanent threat from the large forces of the Zulu King and it was thought with Chelmsford's troops + local forces and native

infantry, that it was the ideal time to bring King Cetywayo under control. We used an old and well tried method - we demanded that a

British Resident be appointed - he would be responsible for all matters involving Zulus - apart from local issues.

We were so determined to force this, that the ultimatum sent to the King did not allow time for a reply - and we declared war in January 1879.

I will not go into the short period of the War - it is well covered in our posts - however, we won and the King was sent into exile. From

the point of view of Chelmsford , he knew that London was not happy with him for losing at Isandlawana - it was the largest casualty level

for any war fought during this colonial period. He was therefore, expecting to be recalled and pushed his men hard to have everthing

settled before General Sir Garnet Wolseley was sent to replace him. They were far from friends and Wolseley was a 'pushy' man.

The general in the famous Gilbert and Sullivan comic opera - "The Pirates of Penzance" - "I am the very model of a modern major-general"

was a skit on him.

Chelmsford returned to the UK and with his connections was made the Viceroy of India - the highest colonial position.

I hope this helps you a little. Mervyn

Realithcheck

Yes, same fellow: "Field Marshal Frederick Sleigh Roberts, 1st Earl Roberts VC KG KP GCB OM GCSI GCIE VD PC (30 September 1832 – 14 November 1914) was a British soldier who was one of the most successful commanders of the 19th century. He served in the Indian rebellion, the Expedition to Abyssinia and the Second Anglo-Afghan War before leading British Forces to success in the Second Boer War. He also became the last Commander-in-Chief of the Forces before the post was abolished in 1904." [Wikipedia]

He was also the model for W.S. Gilberts' "Modern Major General" from the "Pirates of Penzance". A great warrior as well as a soldier, but with the flaws all of us have. There's quite a nice little essay on him by the Kipling Society, giving Kipling - who knew him personally - assessment of him as a general and prehaps explaining why 'Bobs' was so beloved of the common soldier. It's here: http://www.kipling.org.uk/rg_lordroberts_moore.htm

OK so it was Chelmsford troops at Islanhwana and Gariep River and Little hand Hill? And it was all the better when Cetawayo was sent to St.Helena,where Napaleon was exiled also,yes?

Isnt it true that the Earl Roberts lost a son in the Boer fighting? Who was in command before the Earl Roberts took over that command? thank you for your posts.

[peter monahan]

Roberts' son, Lt. Frederick Hugh Sherston Roberts, was awarded the VC for an action at the Battle of Colenso [Dec. 15 1899] in which he, two other officers and a corporal went forward under heavy shell and rifle fire to hook up a Royal Field Artillery gun whose crew had been killed or driven off. He died of his wounds two days later.

There are two lithographs of the action, a famous one [here: http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/280902/Berkeley-Stanley-fl.1878-1902-d.1909-after/Saving-the-Guns-at-Colenso-1899-chromolitho ] and a better one, IMHO, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sidney_Paget00.jpg.

When Roberts took over command in SA, he was placed in command over Sir Redvers Buller, who had commanded until his arrival. Yes, Ceteswayo went to St helena, as did numbers of Boer POWs. There is a graveyard there in which some of them lie. Others went to India.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Wolseley's medals are due to come-up for sale in the next City Coins auction in Capetown.

[QSAMIKE]

Wolseley's medals are due to come-up for sale in the next City Coins auction in Capetown.

Hi Mervyn......

The majority of the Wolseley collection is in the Glenbow Museum here in Calgary..... His campaign medals I know are copies but all of his Orders / Capes / Crowns / Documents etc. also his wife's......

See......

http://ww2.glenbow.org/search/collectionsResults.aspx?AC=GET_RECORD&XC=/search/collectionsResults.aspx&BU=&TN=Objects&SN=AUTO7146&SE=136&RN=23&MR=10&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=0&XP=&RF=WebResults&EF=&DF=WebResultsDetails&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=255&ID=&MF=WPEngMsg.ini&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=1314&NR=0&NB=2&SV=0&BG=&FG=&QS=CollectionsSearch&OEX=ISO-8859-1&OEH=ISO-8859-1

http://ww2.glenbow.org/search/collectionsResults.aspx?AC=GET_RECORD&XC=/search/collectionsResults.aspx&BU=&TN=Objects&SN=AUTO7146&SE=136&RN=34&MR=10&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=0&XP=&RF=WebResults&EF=&DF=WebResultsDetails&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=255&ID=&MF=WPEngMsg.ini&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=1133&NR=0&NB=3&SV=0&BG=&FG=&QS=CollectionsSearch&OEX=ISO-8859-1&OEH=ISO-8859-1

If you go into collections and search the name Wolseley you will see most of the collection including the FM Baton, a City of London Casket....

Mike

Oh yes I must also mention that a number of his documents were destroyed in the flood that were in a private collection......

[Mervyn Mitton]

Thanks Mike - City Coins in Capetown are taking a lot of items from the shop and the owner just mentioned Wolseley. I

wonder what they will have ? Mervyn