Post-war PLMs

[Tim Tezer]

I am kind of importing this topic from the Wehrmacht Awards Forum, but alas - it's down for service, and I've got control of the computer, so I'm going for it.

There has been discussion on the WAF and all over the place about the number of Pour le Merite copies that pass themselves off as 1920's and 1930's copies. That claim is usually the first refuge of an unscrupulous seller trying to pass of an outright modern fake. However, there is no reason to believe that official manufacturers - particularly Wagner and Godet - didn't offer Pour le Merite badges for sale in their shops.

To that end, here are detail photos of the eagles of three different PLM's, two of which are almost certainly post-1918 copies, but made the primary original manufacturer: Johann Wagner & Sohne of Berlin.

First, a typical WW1 era example, this one with no maker's mark, but a "938" silver content mark.

[Tim Tezer]

The second photo shows a PLM which I believe dates from around the early 1920's. It is stamped "W" on the bottom arm of the cross, and "800" on the reverse of the suspension loop. Notice that the eagles have been hand-chased, apparently to make up for detail lost due to die wear.

Edited February 27, 2006 by Tim Tezer

[Tim Tezer]

The third PLM is very much like the second, but completely unmarked. Although there are differences between all of these PLM's, the eagles are close enough that I am convinced they are all from the same dies. So, if anyone says there is no such thing as a REAL post-1918 wearer's copy, I beg to differ.

[Les]

Tim,

Any chance of including the reverse of the three, either seperately, or with the three images cut and pasted side by side? I know some folks like to see the front and back of medal bars, flight badges, etc., and with PlM's seeing the back side has certain advantages.

There are post 1918 PlMs out there, however, verifying that they exist is sometimes tough to do. Previtera's "Prussian Blue" mentions them, but the coverage alloted for post-war examples is a bit thin. He includes a Godet example from a private collection that was worn by a recipient who made the political mistake of belonging to the S.A. at the wrong time, and wound up in front of a firing squad. There is no coverage of a post-war Wagner made items, but the examples you've posted are a step in the direction. Although the market or demand for the medals post-war might have been "small" (a term that gets tossed around quite a bit), there are examples of post-war made pieces.

Les

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

No one would argue the postwar existence, the problem is which ones are 'right'. Step one would be conclusively proving Wagner die pieces.

[Les]

No one would argue the postwar existence, the problem is which ones are 'right'. Step one would be conclusively proving Wagner die pieces.

Tim posted the obverses of a wartime Wagner, and two postwar examples. Whoever wants to compare the images can make their own decisions.

Comparing die struck pieces (flaws, etc) is an important consideration, however Wagner wasn't the only post war jeweler who made PlMs. We know from a 1940 catalogue Gordon Williamson found that Schickel marketed a PlM with Godet type eagles but with a different style cross, and the late Tony Colson had a "Schickel" in his collection. Meybauer made a single-sidedl PlM that also resembles a Godet badge.

Sometimes provenance is the first step. For example, the PlM worn by the Austrian Emporer Franz Josef is neither a typical Godet or Wagner, and furthermore not known to have been made by Rothe either. Similarly, there is another Austrian recipient (Hotzendorf) with another unique badge, and so far, no known maker(s) for either of those two awards.

Les

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

It's not "if" they were made, it's "what" is right.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Tim are you SURE any one of these are a real example of a Wagner PLM?

[Les]

Tim are you SURE any one of these are a real example of a Wagner PLM?

Brian, what makes you think the first one with the connected letters isn't real? It was sold by Detlev and has a COA he signed, and both medal and COA were listed on the emedals site a few months back. If the conected letters put you off your stride, there is a documented Wagner made PlM that was awarded to the flier Berthold that also had connected letters. Berthold is the unfortunate soul who is said to have been strangled with his own neck ribbon while wearing his award.

The 1957 S&L copies have connected letters and the usual response among those who see connceted letters now, is not to look much further. Look past the connected letters and compare the rest of the details to yours or any other Wagner (-and- Friedlander) made PlM you're certain is real. For anyone who doesn't want to bother with checking forum archives, here's a comparison of a Wagner (on the left) and Friedlander (right). Compare these two to the three Tim posted, and feel free to point out what the differences are.

Les

Edited February 28, 2006 by Les

[Stogieman]

Thought this might encourage some debate:

"M273 Pour Le Merite "Blue Max":

I have been informed by Bill Shea that this is a 1930's German made jewelers copy. It is a fine quality piece and has very good detail and some nice age toning. The enamel is very good with a few small bubbles in it. It is a rich blue color. The ring is a bit mis-

shapen. The thick, quality ribbon

is almost 19 inches long with

unfinished ends. There is one spot of

damage where the ring touches it.

A great piece for display.

$1,000.00"

Description, photos and copy courtesy of:

http://www.hmsbrinmaric.com/badges.htm

No, I didn't ask permission to post this. Enjoy it, while it lasts.......

[Stogieman]

Frankly, I'm not quite sure which part of this situation offends me the deepest.

A) The fact that Dealer "A" cites Bill Shea as his source of information

B) The fact that Bill Shea should know better

C) The fact that this is the absolute worst copy I have ever seen.

[Tim Tezer]

I don't think that's the WORST copy I've ever seen.....

...which brings me around to clarify the original point of this thread: many pieces have been passed off as being post-1918 "jewelers copies". In today's market of extremely high quality fakes, we have polarized to either be paraniod about anything that doesn't 100% meet our requirements for originality, or too lax and willing to accept someone's opinion about the origin of an item.

All I am proposing is that post-war copies were made by Wagner, as well as Godet. (Post-war examples of Godet PLMs are already an accepted fact in the collecting community). I think the photographic evidence is pretty strong.

To Brian's point, I cannot say with 100% certainty that these pieces were made by Wagner, as that would be impossible. However, the first example shown bears all the characteristics of a textbook example of a type that is commonly believed to be absolutely original and made either by Friedlander or Wagner (nobody has been able to discern any visible difference between the two makers, as far as I know). The second and third examples, as far as I'm concerned, show sufficient similarity in the details of the eagle to conclude that either they were made from the same die or they were produced by someone who was willing to destroy an original in order to produce an exact copy of the original die. This last hypothesis doesn't hold water. There would be no reason for someone to go to such lengths, when he could merely purchase one of the Spanish copies and sell it on Ebay for $13,000 (Yes, this really happened!)

I will provide additional photos showing the reverse of all three of these examples.

TIm

[Tim Tezer]

Here is the reverse of the firs one:

Edited February 28, 2006 by Tim Tezer

[Tim Tezer]

The second one (800 silver, W mark):

Edited February 28, 2006 by Tim Tezer

[Tim Tezer]

and the third, unmarked cross:

Edited February 28, 2006 by Tim Tezer

[Stogieman]

Hi Tim, didn't mean to "hijack" the thread, but seemed a good place to tuck this "postwar" cross....

On the 3 examples you show, there's such a striking difference in the bodies of the eagles between the first and second two?

[Les]

Hi Tim, didn't mean to "hijack" the thread, but seemed a good place to tuck this "postwar" cross....

On the 3 examples you show, there's such a striking difference in the bodies of the eagles between the first and second two?

Rick,

Previtera's book shows numerous examples of Wagner/Friedlaender PlMs and one example awarded to Bohm in May 1918, shows something interesting that is see in the second two Tim posted: one of the eagles on the reverse of the Bohm PlM has -cross hatching- instead of clearly defined breast feathers. The cross hatching is not a result of the stike wearing down, but appear an attempt to "freshen" the die and sharpen the breast details on one of the eagles. This is one of several signs of die deterioration taking place during the war.

The resort to "cross hatching" the eagle details during the spring/summer of 1918 on at least one example that can be shown here, raises the question why don't subsequent awards have the same feature? In otherwords, why doesn't the one awarded to Brian's grandfather? The answer is perhaps obvious if we take the time to look at other features on other PlMs. There are differences in the lettering details of other Wagner/Friedlander pieces indicating that there was more than one working or production die being used to make the solid silver gilt examples.

For the record, Previtera discusses Wagner and Friedlander pieces, but does not come up with any clear differentiation between "Wagner" made PlMs and "Friedlaender" -marked- items. Some might feel they are two different "types" but my personal view is that there is no real difference between them. I'm starting to believe that Wagner sold "extras" or "factory seconds" that might not have met some specific factory quality control characteristics, to Friedlaender. There is also the matter that both Wagner and Friedlaender silver-gilt PlMs share at least one (possibly two) specific and very synchratic feature (a die flaw) not seen on the earlier Wagner made hollow gold PlMs. Previtera's book doesn't mention what the die flaw is, although whether he knows about it or not....I can't say. I do know that at least one other member of this forum is aware of the flaw.

The first example posted by Tim has it, and so does the second two. I'm not going to take credit for an observation someone else told me about, however, I will suggest that folks look closely at the -REVERSE- of the first posted "Wagner/Fr" PlM, and then the second two that Tim posted. There is a flaw present on all three...and if anyone that owns or has access to a copy of "Prussian Blue" cares to make other comparisons, will see the same flaw on other silver-gilt Wagner/Fr's.

Les

[Les]

Rick,

That example you posted? It looks like it was cast, possibly using a damaged Wagner/Fr piece to create the mold. Andreas last spring (2005) made the same observation on what looks like this same example on WAF.

The eagle details are terrible, but many of the characteristics of the cross are consistent with a real piece can be seen in the crown style, lettering details/fonts/size/spacing.

Les

[Stogieman]

Well that's interesting..... I just realized one eagle is cross-hatched! Duh!

(sound of head pounding against monitor)

[Tim Tezer]

Yeah, the crosshatching on the eagles is one feature that stands out on the 2nd and 3rd examples I posted. Curiously, the cover of Klietmann's "Pour le Merite und Tapferkeitsmedaille" shows what appears to be a gold PLM, with crosshatching on the breasts of the eagles. But in the two shown above, I think the crosshatching was done after striking to try and get some of the detail back into the eagles. On #2, there is additional chasing to the tail feathers, which makes it hard to see the details of the die characteristics, but there is enough there to see that the tail feathers are formed exactly the same way on all three.

I think it's an interesting study of the wear on the dies. Clearly Wagner didn't think it was worth the investment to make a new die, when they probably produced only a handful of these.

Tim

[Les]

There's currently a postwar (1920's-early 1930's) JGuS marked Godet with oakleaves on German ebay at this time. The item has some subtle differences from the standard wartime versions made initially out of gold, then later silver-gilt.

If there's any interest in continuing this thread on post-1918 examples, I'll bootleg a couple of the photos so they can be compared to the wartime version. Otherwise....

Les

[Les]

I'm booting this thread back to the top because it paralells a current thread (started 31 March 2005) that refers to one of the PlMs in the thread.

The are close ups of the eagles, that can be compared to a wartime Wagner, Friedlander, and unmarked "W/Fr" PlM.

Brian, the wings and tailfeathers are where the exact similarities are easiest to spot. The hand chasing of the heads, beaks, and breast feathers are obviously different because of worn dies and extra hand work to freshen up the eagles.

Les

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Maybe you guys can tell me what's with the eagles here. The one on the right was awarded 1918.

[Les]

Maybe you guys can tell me what's with the eagles here. The one on the right was awarded 1918.

Brian,

Look at the reverse side..............there's a die flaw t olook for. Tim's post-war piece(s) have the same flaw which could only have resulted if the eagles were made from the same dies.

<snip>

Tim's eagle has the same -exact- flaw as ....(wartime PlMs made by Wagner have)....

The rest of the differences in the eagles makes them look very different, and I agree with you that the proportions of the heads, necks, etc are markedly different, although that could be the result of not only worn dies, but different craftsman who finished the pieces.

Call that particular flaw a "DNA fingerprint" or whatever, but it's hard to explain how else it could be identical on a Wagner, Friedlander, and a post-war Wagner.

This is my opinion... but this has me wondering if there really is any difference between Wagner and Friedlander, and if Friedlander somehow or other acquired Wagner made PlMs and either did the final finishing, or simply marked them and sold them as their own.

(3 April, 2006: I've edited the about post considerably and removed the attached photo after making the necessary point. This is not about exposing a fake, but as Marshall suggests below, protecting an original, or originals. )

Les

Edited April 3, 2006 by Les

[Biro]

...Look at the reverse side and the tailfeathers at the "4" o'clock position on all three of those....

To be honest, my suggestion would be that we leave it at that... particularly with the images.

I'm all for exposing a fake - but protecting an original is a little more delicate..

M