17th and 21st Lancers Vickie plates

[Luftmensch]

This is the last of Luftmensch's Victoriana! I usually stick to WW1 aviation, but these looked nice so I took them in trade. I hear to my dismay that British helmets and plates have become somewhat of a snakepit with so many good fakes about. Do these pass muster? Thanks for any opinions.

I'm told this is the "second pattern"? Of which none were made for ORs?

[Luftmensch]

[Luftmensch]

[Mervyn Mitton]

Both lovely plates and SO sought after. The 21 st Lancers had the famous charge at Omdurman - and have the Khartoum

honour on the plate - this was in 1898. The badge was therefore, made between then and 1901 when Queen Victoria died -

the Crown is the last pattern with the straight sides and did overlap into Edward 7th. Reign.

From the Crown style on the 17th. Plate , I suspect early in Queen Elizabeth's Reign. Not sure when they amalgamated with the

5th. Lancers. Until some 10 years ago they were selling stock from the joint 17/5/21 Lancers , to free space.

They both look OK and dependent on what you swapped, you have probably done very well. Mervyn

[peter monahan]

And if you care to swap them for some old pocket books and a small but friendly dog, do let me know!

Peter

[Mervyn Mitton]

Peter - how could you even think of this - dogs come first..............

[Luftmensch]

Militaria for dogs, I'm glad my wife doesn't read this forum. We'd be up to our ears in labs...

On a more serious note, a large (nameless!) auction house in the UK has refused to take these on consignment and won't say why. The hint was dropped by someone else that there is rampant electroforming going on. Would someone tell me what the signs of this are?

By the way, the provenance of these are...

1. 21st...ex-Walter Lamberts, sold at Wallis & Wallis Connoiseur Sale

2. 17th...Tom Romans (ex-17th) and valued by Graham Lay on Roadshow years ago at 2-3000 pounds (I have the DVD)

So I'm baffled, but I suppose these could have been switched out at some point for nefarious purposes. But I'm starting to think british plates are a minefield more fraught than Nazi daggers!!! Next I will try Wallis & Wallis.

Thanks for any tips on ID'ing electroforms.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Luftmensch - You have top provenance for these two plates. Wallis and Wallis are experts in the Militaria field and you can be sure that

if this was on the Conn. sale - that it has been carefully vetted. Similarly, with the 17th - excellent background.

I think that what is happening is that because so many items are being reproduced, that top auctions are just steering clear of them as items

to sell. Just too much trouble if one does prove to be wrong. With one or two exceptions I have found that the central London houses have

become very 'picky'. Sometimes better to deal with the knowledgeable specialist auctions - who don't set so many restrictions and don't

charge so much commission. I would advise that you have these mounted in a nice frame and keep them on display. Give it a few

years and you will be amazed at the investment increase. Mervyn

[Dave Alexander]

17/21L amalgamated with the 16/5L in 1993 to form the Queen's Royal Lancers. Later this year the QRL will amalgamate with the 9/12L to form the Royal Lancers. Tom Romans was Trumpet Major in 17/21L when band was dis-banded and members kept their dress uniforms. Nice bonus.

[Mervyn Mitton]

Thankyou Dave for that additional info.. I find these amalgamations are taking place so often that it is difficult

to keep-up. I had a friend who was a retired WW2 Major with the 17th (died some years ago) he used to be

able to get me items from the stores catalogue when they were selling spare items. I think this is where dedicated

collectors have an important part to play - no doubt in years to come their museums will be complaining

about not having enough items for display - forgetting that they sold them all for a relatively small amount. Mervyn