Yugoslavia Order of the Republic with Silver Wreath.

[Georg14]

Good day, Gentleman.

Concrete the 6 torches type. Few questions:

1. With 2 stamps - of course it's silver, without any stamps - gilded metall. But the orders with only 1 IKOM stamp, without additional hallmark (such were on 5 torches too) ? Is it also a metall or silver ?

2. Does the size/form of the holes on the reverse suggest the time of manufactured such orders ?

3. Could be genuine order with such a poor enamel (this is not dirty... ) ?

How often found a fakes of Yugoslavian awards ?

Thanks.

[Rogi]

The problem with lots of Yugoslavian orders is the countless varients, I believe that in this price range it is very unusual to spot a fake(but they are out there)

Without the reverse shot of this order I would not buy it. The frontal shot is very crude as well and if this is a legitimate piece it is a very harsh striking. From just the frontal shot I would say to pass. You can probably find a more legitimate and nicer looking variant floating around, you just have to keep looking. This looks more like a 3rd class, re-gilded and tried to pass off as a 2nd.

To my knowledge, 5 and 6 torches were all gilded silver (2nd classes), none were tombac or metal in this era. (even most without hallmarks are silver)the only ones in Tombac that I know of are non-Yugoslavian varients and 6 Torches, most are occasionally in Milosevic era. but this is a more recent awarding group pre dissolution of the Government and only a few have been seen on the market, mostly of other orders, but this is getting into other details.

Hope that helped a bit :)

Edited April 16, 2014 by Rogi

[paja]

I could be wrong but I think that 2nd classes were made both out of silver and from some other metal, probably bronze. When you take a look at the back sides of the order you can notice that there are pieces with smooth and shinny (I believe that those are made out of silver regardless of hallmarks) and crude surface (bronze?). I say bronze because their surface looks similar as on 3rd class orders made out of that metal.

As for the size of the holes, I am pretty sure that the variants with smaller holes were made first, unfortunately I do not know when exactly was the large holes variant introduced.

There are fakes of Yugoslav orders but luckily I don't remember seeing any decent ones of this particular order.

[Georg14]

Is it known the difference in weight of silver and metal orders ? What about poor enamel ?

Edited April 16, 2014 by Georg14

[Rogi]

Is it known the difference in weight of silver and metal orders ? What about poor enamel ?

I think it is somewhere, I'll take a look for the weight info. and if I find it post here, as for enamel, it could easily be an enamel replacement that wasn't done that well, although we have the luxury of passing on these orders and going to the next ones, sometimes the enamel is broken and people "fix' it rather than leave it be.

[paja]

Enamel really looks strange, I don't remember seeing anything like that before, maybe even some production flaw.

Considering that there are couple of types and variants I'm not sure if the weight alone could be of use when determining is the order made out of silver or not. Just remember Order of Merits for the People and how many weight differences were there, although there aren't that many different types when it comes to Order of the Republic.

Edited April 19, 2014 by paja

[Georg14]

Yes, by weight You're right, of course. Signs of restoration of order I could not find and very surprised such defect of production, in any case I'll try to change it and then I'll see what is under the gold-plated .

[Rogi]

Does it match the size of 2nd class orders (do you have a second class to compare with?) ? This one to me looks more like a 3rd class dressed up as a 2nd.

The 3rd has almost identical style stars, while 2nd class have a much nicer and polished look to the stars themselves.

Another thing, anything of these orders has from what I've seen so far with the star, a "mini" star in the connecting points of the stars in the gilt. The enamel almost looks like a good coat of nailpolish vs enamel on this example in the photo.

This example has something that just looks like lines attaching to the points in the center of the star.

When you look at the star above the Flames, it also, appears not to be a star that is equal to each arm. All the examples I've seen of Yugoslavian Orders that are made have very sharp looking stars in this area.

Do you have a full reverse of this order in a picture or two?

I'll try to post some pics today to explain what I mean in these cases.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Rogi

[Georg14]

Thanks for answers !

Unfortunately I don't have other 2nd's yet. Size of this is 45,0x47,0 mm.

To dress 3rd cl. to a 2nd is necessary to disassemble it, but it is not seen that rivets are touched (or it's a very professional job).

Star on top of the Flame - I have seen such poor performance.

And finally, I never seen 3rd's with IKOM stamp. But I probably did not see a lot of.

So, maybe it's easier to buy exactly genuine (with 2 stamps) and find out that is inside of this one .

Regards !

P.S. I have specially processed photo to highlight enamel defects, really it is not so terrible.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Georg14

[Rogi]

Ah so yours was the left order not the right one and it has a "hallmark", I was under the assumption that it doesn't have any hallmark.

Ok if it has the Ikom mark it is silver I've got a couple of their pieces that are definatley silver and each has this marking. Paja and I have been discussing this one and their markings for a while I'm 99.9% sure your piece is silver gilt, from our conversation now that we see the reverse and marking. There are also a lot of Yugoslavian Orders with 0 hallmarks and are silver

I wouldn't worry about the hallmark too much.

It doesn't have abrasive surface on its reverse, most of these are metal and not silver if they are abrasive.

Would you be able to take a high quality photo of the front of the order as well?

I think that there was a repair to the star's enamels as we've previously talked about

The only other thing that concerns me about this piece is the difference in Gilding, the back and "base" of the piece is almost mint in the Gilt. While the central "Flame" and Wreath appear warn. I'd love a better shot of those areas to see if it is the quality in photo or if this actually is a difference in gilding.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Rogi

[Georg14]

"Would you be able to take a high quality photo of the front of the order as well?"

More photos please, if I understand correctly.

[Rogi]

The enamel is replacement looks very similar to nail polish, is it "hard" when you touch it a bit with the finger?

Everything else looks fine (even the wreath and Star on the torch is even in these photos) the first photo on this topic looked like the star had smaller arm on the right edge.

It is silver, later period issue congrats

Edited April 21, 2014 by Rogi

[utopis]

I see nothing wrong with the enamel. Were is it supposedly replaced? Are you concerned about the dots in the white enamel? That would mean that the complete enamel of this piece must have been replaced. That would only be the case if the piece was devastatingly damaged. Other than the enamel the order seems to be near mint, no? In that case even the central enamel would have to be replaced which is only possible if the coat of arms would've been taken off. That should leave some marks (aka you can't remove rivets without destroying them) - that doesn't seem to be the case, either. And last: for enamel to be flat it has to be cut like a gem - meaning that such a process if done by a common jeweler would most likely leave some marks (for example abrasion of the gilding).

The reason for these dots is probably a production mistake. Enamel powder consists of several ingredients and if they're mixed in wrong ratio this is a possible consequence.

[Rogi]

I see nothing wrong with the enamel. Were is it supposedly replaced? Are you concerned about the dots in the white enamel? That would mean that the complete enamel of this piece must have been replaced. That would only be the case if the piece was devastatingly damaged. Other than the enamel the order seems to be near mint, no? In that case even the central enamel would have to be replaced which is only possible if the coat of arms would've been taken off. That should leave some marks (aka you can't remove rivets without destroying them) - that doesn't seem to be the case, either. And last: for enamel to be flat it has to be cut like a gem - meaning that such a process if done by a common jeweler would most likely leave some marks (for example abrasion of the gilding).

The reason for these dots is probably a production mistake. Enamel powder consists of several ingredients and if they're mixed in wrong ratio this is a possible consequence.

I was referring to the Red enamel on the stars (which can break fairly easily, usually 1 fall is what it takes) , I can only say through personal experience but my father had his Order of the Republic sent into the Army to have the enamel repair work done (although he had the complete overhall since everything was broken on the enameling, to who it was sent, I have no idea), I remember as a child it being Orange instead of the Ruby/Scarlet Red on other orders. This is where my favorite color, Orange originally began

Of course they could have sent him a replacement, but it had the same knicks and dings as his older one, so I'm assuming they did repair work.

I've seen a couple listed online in similar states, most with full enamel work (since most have had these enamel fully break) but occasionally you can find one with 3 replacements and 1 intact or various combos. In my experience most of these replacements had everything replaced to match the other stars and make the Order uniform. They seem to all have the thinner gilding in the interior of the star.

Here are some examples of online Stars, you can see where the Orange in the bottom picture resembles the same Orange as in this Order in the thread (which I put as the 1st star for comparison) and if you notice the repair wasn't done perfectly as the re-gilded area is crooked on the bottom star.

Of course we could say this is all speculation and it could very well be a manufacturing error, but this is all I can convey from personal experience

The right Stars are from what the Scarlet/Ruby color was intended to look like.

The Oranges all seem to have rough looking areas on their enamel. It resembles sand when I look at it from my perspective, this area can either be rough or a clear and clean texture depending on how the enamel has set. Although in these orange pieces the "sand" look is always present.

Unfortunatley with not too much info. on Yugoslavian Orders and production methods, I can't say for sure and can only offer what I've experienced.

The white enamel has an odd dots as well, but there are a couple in similar orders.

There is also a crack (hairline) in the white enamel, but I won't go into that for now.

It is an interesting piece with character it isn't mint, but very close to it, there are a couple areas on the reverse with noticeable wear scratches etc. and the central Torches and wreath are fine at best in gilt wear, there is a noticeable difference between the central Torch and Wreath and the gilding on the base (the base of the order)

Whether this is a repair to the enamel or manufacturing defect I don't know, but I'd be interested in other's opinions on this piece as well as I'm opinion to others' experiences and info.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Rogi

[utopis]

That should be fairly easy to detect.

Either with an UV lamp or by doing the "pushing"-test

[utopis]

As I stated previously I think that the enamel is low grade because of a production mistake (resulting in several pieces/a small series with similar defects).

Here are pictures of another piece which has a dotted white enamel and orange coloured red stars. It's a 2nd type 2nd class too made of silver.

[Rogi]

Recently found this one online on the big auction site, could be manufacturing mistake or repair job (since the needle on the reverse was broken, it isn't out of the question that it could have fallen but again could of happened any time and we can't tell) Although this one has small bits of black in the white enamels from what I can tell in the photos.

Different style Torch too which is cool

#2

Edited April 21, 2014 by Rogi

[paja]

I am bit late with my reply but I would just like to point out couple of things and write down my conclusions. Before that let me just thank you all for a very interesting and in my opinion very useful discussion.

When it comes to production material it seems to me that the first type (5 torches) was made out of silver while the second type was made both out of silver and some other metal, probably bronze. I am pretty certain that in some cases orders are silver even if without hallmarks. Those are orders with smooth and shinny surface on the back side. I wrote all of this before but now I also want to show couple of examples.

First type.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-7937-0-02212300-1398197466.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-7937-0-78804100-1398197478.jpg

Second type, variant with "small holes".

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-7937-0-77487500-1398197547.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-7937-0-66928200-1398197555.jpg

Example of a non-silver 6 torches type with "large holes". By the way I can not say if all of those are non-silver but certainly looks that way, I was not able to find a single example of a order of that variant that hasn't got a different surface on the back side compared to silver orders. Also I believe that this is the last variant of the order, I know for sure that they were awarded throughout the '80s but can't say when were they first introduced.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-7937-0-80515500-1398198374.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-7937-0-53652100-1398198544.jpg

Edited April 24, 2014 by paja

[paja]

Second thing "enamel dots", even though it's not that unusual to notice them on these orders, it is, in my personal opinion, unusual to see order with that many of them. I don't remember seeing one with the similar amount of "dots".

And finally the stars, Rogi thanks for pointing this out, I didn't notice before that some of the orders are with orange stars... Just wasn't paying that much attention to that detail. Based on your story I would not completely rule out that at least some of those orange stars were re-enameled. Also couple of orders from we all know where that had orange stars had pieces of enamel outside of the star - could be nothing but could also support your story. One more thing even those red ones can be different, some of them are "semi-transparent", others are not.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-7937-0-30151300-1398200673.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-7937-0-64893800-1398200683.jpg

And how about this one? There's something orange around the stars, can't really say what...

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-7937-0-12330000-1398200881.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2014/post-7937-0-57768500-1398200890.jpg

Edited April 24, 2014 by paja

[utopis]

When it comes to production material it seems to me that the first type (5 torches) was made out of silver while the second type was made both out of silver and some other metal, probably bronze. I am pretty certain that in some cases orders are silver even if without hallmarks. Those are orders with smooth and shinny surface on the back side.

Yes I think this can be agreed upon by all.

5 torches = silver, smooth reverse

6 rorches= silver, smooth reverse

bronze, grainy reverse

--

the orange thing beneath the star seems to be excessive enamel

Edited April 22, 2014 by utopis

[Rogi]

Yes I think this can be agreed upon by all.

5 torches = silver, smooth reverse

6 rorches= silver, smooth reverse

bronze, grainy reverse

--

the orange thing beneath the star seems to be excessive enamel

Agreed with all above

Whatever the grainy thing is on them, it aint silver that is for sure :D

Edited April 22, 2014 by Rogi