Glengarry

[paul kennedy]

My first Glengarry:

Can anyone help me with what year this code coincides with?

I believe the badge is wrong as the tourie is red. Am I correct?

[QSAMIKE]

Hello Paul......

Looks OK to me as I have a few that are the same......

51 is possibly 1951, the WD and Broad Arrow is War Department, I am not sure of the P though, possibly manufacturer......

Mike

[jf42]

But true enough, the Cameronians badge displayed does not belong on that Glengarry.

[QSAMIKE]

Here is mine.......

Mike

[Jerry B]

P is the date letter for 1941 and 1947, though for WWII markings it is usually underneath. The colour combination with a red toorie is correct for the Queens own Cameronian highlanders. Bigger pics would be nice to see, I don't understand how people expect to get help when the images they show are so small, sorry if that comes ovger as rude but thats how I see it. WWI headgear sometimes uses a P as party of the WD code markings, though I assume without better pics that this is a post WWII example.

t=1937 & 1956 *
s=1938 & 1957
r= 1939 & 1948
q=1940
p=1941
o=1942
n=1943
m=1944 & 1953
z=1945
l=1945, 1946 & 1953
e,p=1947 *
r=1948
a=1949
b,a=1950 *
b=1951
c=1952
l=1953
m=1954
d,o,t=1955 *
t=1956 & 1937
s=1957
f=1958
x=1959 *

[QSAMIKE]

Good Morning Jerry......

Thanks for the additional information.......

But......

Your statement: "Bigger pics would be nice to see, I don't understand how people expect to get help when the images they show are so small, sorry if that comes over as rude but thats how I see it."

In a way I agree.......

The pictures that I posted are to the maximum that the system will accept...... I have tried to post larger but the system will not accept.......

Mike

[Jerry B]

Good Morning Jerry......

Thanks for the additional information.......

But......

Your statement: "Bigger pics would be nice to see, I don't understand how people expect to get help when the images they show are so small, sorry if that comes over as rude but thats how I see it."

In a way I agree.......

The pictures that I posted are to the maximum that the system will accept...... I have tried to post larger but the system will not accept.......

Mike

Hi Mike, sorry if I came over all grumpy there. Strangely though it is evening here and I have not long gottten home from a uninspring day in work and perhaps I should have left the sh#t there.

I seem able to post bigger pics here. My late Victorian Welsh regiment Volunteers battalion officers Glengarry blows up quite large when you click on it.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Jerry B

[QSAMIKE]

No Sweat Jerry......

Have had those days, but retired now......

It's now afternoon here......

I do not know what operating system that you have (I have Windows 7) but if I put my curser on the photo right click and click on Open Link I get a larger picture.......

Mike

[Jerry B]

I don't know why Mike but when I click on your pictures they don't seem to enlarge as much as the ones I post, though it sayas yours are larger in kb's than mine.

[paul kennedy]

Jerry,

You've helped me before with my HMS Submarines Cap, my Northumberland Fusiliers Peaked Cap, and my field service caps. Are the pictures from those posts better than these, or are all my photos showing as too small? (I also have Windows 7)

If it's just these photos, I'll take better pictures when my cap arrives in my hands.

Thanks,

Paul

By the way, I wouldn't take any advice or criticism as rude from you. You have been very helpful to me as I've fallen in love with British headgear. Thank you for that.

Edited October 28, 2014 by paul kennedy

[paul kennedy]

It looks like my other photos are better. I will take better pictures. Is it true that the Queens Own Cameron Highlanders had the black ribbon cockade behind the badge, and the Black Watch did not?

Edited October 28, 2014 by paul kennedy

[Jerry B]

Jerry,

You've helped me before with my HMS Submarines Cap, my Northumberland Fusiliers Peaked Cap, and my field service caps. Are the pictures from those posts better than these, or are all my photos showing as too small? (I also have Windows 7)

If it's just these photos, I'll take better pictures when my cap arrives in my hands.

Thanks,

Paul

By the way, I wouldn't take any advice or criticism as rude from you. You have been very helpful to me as I've fallen in love with British headgear. Thank you for that.

Hi Paul, looking at the side cap thread and the royal fusiliers, both of them have nice big detailed pics so it is just this thread. I have taken my gumpy hat off, sorry again for that but it is a bugbear, not just here where sometimes smaller pictures are all you can post, but sometimes people are asking opinons on very expensive items and they post tiny poorly focussed images and it drives me mad.

[Jerry B]

It looks like my other photos are better. I will take better pictures. Is it true that the Queens Own Cameron Highlanders had the black ribbon cockade behind the badge, and the Black Watch did not?

In theory yes the QOCH have the ribbon backing and the BW do not. A useful guide on these which you can find copies of for sale some times.

[Jerry B]

I copied this from the Great War Forum.

I'm hoping to get some help from collectors that have articles of clothing with the wartime RACD stamp and a known maker.

I am trying to correlate makers to Clothing Depots. I have never known what the letters tamps meant except it doesn't relate to date--like post war. I had thought they may refere to type of commmodity or inspection branch or Depot. I now think that L=depot.

I'm trying to get supporting documentation or documentation that blows this theory out of the water.

What started me thinking about this again was threads on this forum and one on Wolseley Helmets and also the Badges forum.

Most of my information is very circumstantial and might not apply for the duration of war.

Most is gleaned from the History of Army Ordnance Services, Debenhams Report on RACD and appendices (Barron Levy reports) and DEOS (Steevens reply) and of course observation.

The number on the Stamp is to the Inspector/viewer--Steevens states this in his reply to the recommendations of the three reports cited. Also, this system was instituted due to lost control and corruption by some viewers at pimlico in the brush, cutlery and braces area after June 30 1915.

The above cited reports that ther number of Inspectors and assistant inspectors went from 5 to 39 and for viewers 55 to 317 from 1914 to Sept 15.

The letters I now believe are to the Depots tasked with Reciept and storage. In Sept 1915 these were:
Pimlico (London)
Olympia (London)
White City (london)
Marlyborne (London)
Leeds
Manchester (Trafford Park) Only set-up for reciept of US and Canadian Made Uniforms and in process of shutting down)

Possible other: Glasgow, and Dublin.

Stamps I've encountered are E, L, M, N, O, P

I believe that

L=Leeds
M=Marlyborne
O=Olympia
P=Pimlico

I believe that commodities that needed special skills for inpsectors went to specific Depots and that more generalized SD clothing to regional Depots.

I have 3 SD jackets with Three different Leeds Manufacturers all with an L stamp.

I have two London Makers of SD jackets all with an M stamp.

All Caps have either an O for caps made 1915-early 1917 or a P for deliveries after early 1917. Interestingly, several caps have come to the surface that have stamps from 1918-1922 using the pre-war RACD system that Pimico used of W/ID over number over date. See http://www.britishba...ead.php?t=29216 Thanks Taff. This leads me to believe caps were coming into PIMLICO and the system reverted back to pre-war ways of doing business circa 18/19. I also have three kilts with the P code--the only ones with still legible stamps.

All waterproof clothing I have or seen have the O stamp. I suspect that caps went to Olympia first then to Pimlico after Waterproof clothing swamped Olympia.

This doesn't answer what E or N stood for or what code White City had. Nor what depots closed and potentially others opened.

I have one pair of SD trousers with what I believe is an E code but no intact manufacutring label and I think I have some SD with an N code, but can't find at moment.

For those collectors that have clothing with labels could you please check to see manfacture lines up with the closest code for a Depot (particulaly SD).

Of course if we have a lot of london manufactures with an L code this theory is blown out of the water.

Thanks in advance

Joe Sweeney

[paul kennedy]

So, if a cap was made between 1915-1917, the P would stand for Pimlico, but before and after that period the P would be a date?

That is how I understand this:

"...or a P for deliveries after early 1917. Interestingly, several caps have come to the surface that have stamps from 1918-1922 using the pre-war RACD system that Pimlico used of W/lD over number over date. This leads me to believe caps were coming into Pimlico and the system reverted back to pre-war days of doing business circa 18/19."

Am I understanding this right?

Edited October 29, 2014 by paul kennedy

[paul kennedy]

The cap is in hand now. Here are better pictures.

What do you think Jerry?

[paul kennedy]

Here's the badge.

Has anyone ever seen this ENGLAND tab?

[Jerry B]

The cap has the oily liner that you would expect to see on earlier examples and up to WWII, very nice and it might be WWI. The badge is a fake, the England tab is a sure sign of that, but as it was the wrong badge it is not too big a loss and just try and find an original QOCH badge for it.

[paul kennedy]

Thank you Jerry. That's great news.

If I understand correctly, the "P" could be Pimlico and date from ca.1917, or could be date code for 1941.

Also, I want a Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders badge (not a Black Watch) to make this correct, yes?

Edited October 30, 2014 by paul kennedy

[Jerry B]

Yes, with the rosette it would be Queen's Own Camaron highlanders, not Black watch.

Here are two from my collection.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2014/post-17018-0-45448400-1414700445.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2014/post-17018-0-47575600-1414700466.jpg

[paul kennedy]

It doesn't have a rosette (if you mean a ribbon cockade behind the badge).

Would this then be Black Watch?

Sorry for so many questions. I want to get this cap right.

[Jerry B]

It doesn't have a rosette (if you mean a ribbon cockade behind the badge).

Would this then be Black Watch?

Sorry for so many questions. I want to get this cap right.

Sorry Paul I must have got distracted by the other cap shown which has the rosette whilst yours does not so Black Watch would be correct. The problem then is that WWI BW is different from WWII versions. I think yours is WWI because for WWII the P would be above the WD rather than below as on yours so you need the type with the lower scroll.

WWI type

WWII type

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2014/post-17018-0-65869900-1414701273.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2014/post-17018-0-30433600-1414701293.jpg

[paul kennedy]

That is Fantastic news! Now to find that badge!

[jf42]

The colour combination with a red toorie is correct for the Queens own Cameronian highlanders.

Probably a slip of the pen but maybe it's worth pointing out that the badge on the OP photo was to the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) as opposed to the Q.O. Cameron Highlanders, whose badge is shown alongside that of the Cameronians in QSA Mike's subsequent post. The Cameronians bonnet was dark green with a black tourie

The 79th Cameron Highlanders wore plain blue Glengarry bonnets from circa 1841 when their CO allegedly introduced the folding 'Highland' bonnet as military undress headgear (rather than McDonnell of Glengarry as tradition would have it). The 42nd (Black Watch ) followed suit when they finally adopted the Glengarry circa 1868, as did the HLI (71st &74th ) after 1881. The 42nd seem to have worn undress bonnets without dicing from early in the C19th. The Seaforth Highlanders (72nd & 78th originally wore plain glengarries after being formed in 1881, but added a diced band circa 1885. The 92nd Gordons Hldrs and the 93rd Sutherland Hldrs wore bonnets with diced bands from 1853 when the Glengarry was ordered for all kilted Highland corps- an order ignored by the Black Watch, who, for reasons unknown, stuck to the so-called 'Kilmarnock' - without dicing- for another fifteen years, through the Crimea and the Mutiny. They maintained their difference by wearing a Glengarry absolutely unadorned except for the regimental cap badge.

Sorry, what was the question?

[Jerry B]

Probably a slip of the pen but maybe it's worth pointing out that the badge on the OP photo was to the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) as opposed to the Q.O. Cameron Highlanders, whose badge is shown alongside that of the Cameronians in QSA Mike's subsequent post. The Cameronians bonnet was dark green with a black tourie

The 79th Cameron Highlanders wore plain blue Glengarry bonnets from circa 1841 when their CO allegedly introduced the folding 'Highland' bonnet as military undress headgear (rather than McDonnell of Glengarry as tradition would have it). The 42nd (Black Watch ) followed suit when they finally adopted the Glengarry circa 1868, as did the HLI (71st &74th ) after 1881. The 42nd seem to have worn undress bonnets without dicing from early in the C19th. The Seaforth Highlanders (72nd & 78th originally wore plain glengarries after being formed in 1881, but added a diced band circa 1885. The 92nd Gordons Hldrs and the 93rd Sutherland Hldrs wore bonnets with diced bands from 1853 when the Glengarry was ordered for all kilted Highland corps- an order ignored by the Black Watch, who, for reasons unknown, stuck to the so-called 'Kilmarnock' - without dicing- for another fifteen years, through the Crimea and the Mutiny. They maintained their difference by wearing a Glengarry absolutely unadorned except for the regimental cap badge.

Sorry, what was the question?

I was commenting on Glengarries without diced bands that had red toories, which were the Black watch and the QOCH, which is why the letter were mentioned as the cap was not for the Cams to whom it was badged.

Obviously though you appear to be well up on these and there is probably no need for me to comment any further