HJ: Hitler-Jugend HJ Honour Badge?

[Jock Auld]

Guys,

Not sure about this one, odd markings BM1/122, RZM with what appears to be a small 11 incorperated in the M and a serial of 312. What do the HJ or political folk think? I have something at the back of my head that tells me BM is possibly ok but I just can't remember.

[piekenier]

The "11" denotes approved M11 manufacturer of NSDAP badges .Not sure why the manufacturer did not have a complete M11 number .

The BM1/122 denotes the RZM badge metal manufacturer number (M1 number )assigned to the specific manufacturer .

This is the way I read it .

The badge looks like a very good original.

[Jock Auld]

Thank you for the info, I will do a bit more home work when I have time.  It is not an area I focus on and to be honest I have never seen one in the hand before.  I bought it at risk as a normal badge as the bloke that sold it thought it was a normal one.  It was more than I would like to part with at €20 for a potential copy so that is good news, thanks again.

[Jock Auld]

The "11" denotes approved M11 manufacturer of NSDAP badges .Not sure why the manufacturer did not have a complete M11 number .

The BM1/122 denotes the RZM badge metal manufacturer number (M1 number )assigned to the specific manufacturer .

This is the way I read it .

The badge looks like a very good original.

Done some digging, its a wrong un.  That will teach me!  Thank goodness it was only a 20 spot but then it would never have been any more as I am tight!

[piekenier]

Please enlighten me as to the things that are wrong as it could help avoiding pitfalls in the future .The badge looks so good! Would have fooled me.

[Jock Auld]

It is the fact that it is marked BM1 not M1 and the 11.  That said it is internet chatter and we would not be the first to be fooled as it features in various books as original.  I am going to have a proper search on this one and see when it fell out of favour and why ie evidence.  It is the B and the 11 that sets it apart just got to find out why someone would make such a stupid error when copying something.  The only book I have with it in is Neiman edition 3 p 359, but then that just highlights that these people make mistakes or even colude at times to authenticate items, thats why I laugh when a debate goes on then someone drops a name like it came from Weitze and that is supposed to be the proof.  I owe it €20 worth of time!

[XEN]

There is a number of discussions about this over on hj-research.com and it seems clear that Nimmergut is to blame for the confusion with this MM.  Patzwall wrote a very good article on the various HJ honour badges back in 2004 mainly in order to correct Nimmergut but along the way he showed exactly why "BM1/122" cannot be an authentic MM.  For example, 122 is Deutschbein but that company's M1 licence was not for badges.

Edited April 17, 2015 by XEN

[Jock Auld]

Xen,

I take the point but there is not much known about the RZM post 39ish?  Also the licence was an annual renewal so do we know for sure that they did not expand into badges later, it would seem logical as it was not a small firm.  If I get more time I shall poke around and see what I can turn up about the firm as i am sure there must be something more out there.  What interested me was the configuration of the marking with that small 11 in it which would make it look like a fantasy piece but I was surprised to find that there were certainly paper stamps with the numbers in them as is demonstarted on the RZM site under the Betreibskontrolamt section?  Do you know what date is on the M1 licence?  I have no time at the moment as I am changing job just now.

Cheers.

Jock

[XEN]

Hi Jock,

Deutschbein was granted his M1 licence (for "Behörden-Hoheitsabzeichen" not for political badges) in the fourth quarter of 1938.   The serial number on the badge in post #1 would put its award date (to the wearer) into 1934/5 when Deutschbein didn't have a licence to produce anything at all yet.

Edited April 18, 2015 by XEN
added some more

[Jock Auld]

Xen,

That is good info to have.  Do the serial numbers date to specific years or could each company that produced the badges start at number 1  with their own product.  Is there any documentation to support that one way or the other, I wonder how this was co-ordinated between firms that are known to have produced them particularly when you may not automaticaly have your licence renewed?  This would have been dificult enough with todays technoligy.  I just don't think we know enough about the RZM and all of its sub departments.  On the other side of the coin has anyone outed who and where these were post war made as that should be easier to find I would have thought?  I do not want to replicate all of what has been discussed beforehand but as I have seen on many of these fora that it is quite often opinion rather than hard fact, I prefere the later.  I am not a member of the forum you have linked as HJ is not my bag but I will give it a spin.

Cheers

 

Jock 

[Jock Auld]

Xen,

I tried your link and tried to register using my name as on here but unless you already have someone by that name then I guess the site owner has pre emptively banned me under my name. Thankyou anyway for the invite.  I could of course register under a different ID and IP but I just can't be bothered. 

Have you had a look at that excellent site about the RZM, since the link is on another thread http://reichszeugmeisterei.npage.de/herstellungsfirmen/handbuch-der-rzm.html

Thanks again though.

Jock