Can these be ID'ed?

[GODISHIGH]

Can either of these three ribbon bars be Identified?. 

I am looking for Ribbon/Medal bars that can be attributed but I dont know what to look for other than the 25 year service award and look for something unique but I dont know what qualifies as unique on a bar.

thanks
John

[Dave Danner]

For the first one, I have two possibilities, although there may be others.  There is no roll for Hessen wartime awards, so there may be some other Schwarzburg award recipients who have something from Hessen on that ribbon whom we have not yet identified. The two I do know had both the Schwarzburg Honor Cross 3rd Class with Swords and the Hessen Bravery Medal, were civil servants and were still alive in the 1930s/1940s to get the Treuedienst-Ehrenzeichen. I don't know about the Olympia-Ehrenzeichen - there is a list of the higher classes, but I don't think there is one for the many awards of the medal to people who provided some support to the 1936 Olympics.  The two I have are: 

• Lotz, Wilhelm, Dr.phil., *22.12.1883 in Vilbel, Friedberg in Hessen; Lt.d.R., RIR 82; Oberlehrer in Sondershausen

• Weidmann, Karl, Dr.phil., *16.10.1888 in Büdingen, Hessen; Lt.d.R., LFußABat 10; Oberlehrer in Sondershausen

The second bar might be for an officer, but odds are it is for an NCO.  You might be able to cross-check recipients of the Bavarian Gold or Silver Bravery Medals against Bavarian recipients of the Saxe-Meiningen Medal for Merit in War.  The Bavarian military records on Ancestry could confirm the other awards.

 

[GODISHIGH]

How could I confirm if the first bar belongs to either of the two you mentioned?  I dont have access to any ranglists and have never seen any.  Im getting some from Daniel soon.  Ive never identified a bar before so i dont know the process at all.  

Also what about the third bar?

 

[Dave Danner]

I don't know if there is a way to confirm it.  Sometimes, getting it down to a handful of names is as close as you can get. 

I know that Lotz received the Hessian Bravery Medal, because it was in his award recommendation for the Schwarzburg Honor Cross, which I reviewed in the archives in Rudolstadt.  I also know that Lotz was in the Hessian and later Schwarzburg/Thuringian higher education service since before World War I, and was still alive in the late 1930s, so he would have the Honor Cross for Combatants and probably qualified for the Treuedienst-Ehrenzeichen.  I know of no way to confirm either the Olympia-Ehrenzeichen or the Hungarian War Commemorative Medal.  Lotz is not the in 1942 Dienstaltersliste of the Education Ministry, so he could have been retired or dead before then.

Weidmann is in the 1942 Dienstaltersliste, which lists his EK2, Schwarzburg Honor Cross, Hessian Bravery Medal and Honor Cross for Combatants.  The Treuedienst-Ehrenzeichen is not listed in this Dienstaltersliste, but his seniority dates from 1913, so he had the requisite 25 years of service.  The Olympia-Ehrenzeichen is also not shown in the Dienstaltersliste, as it apparently was not considered a decoration.

I know of a few other recipients of both the Schwarzburg and Hessen awards who can be eliminated for other reasons. Some had other known awards. Others had civilian jobs outside the civil service.  Others died before 1936.  However, as I mentioned above, there may be others we don't know about yet.  There are several recipients of the Schwarzburg Honor Cross for whom I don't even have a first name, much less any idea whether they also had a Hessen connection or a civil service job.

I only just discovered the first name of one recipient of the 4th Class with Swords today. He was Louis Köhring, born in Sondershausen and a a Vizefeldwebel and Offizier-Stellvertreter in Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 168.  IR 168 is from Hessen, so he probably also had the Hessen Bravery Medal.  I don't know what he did in civilian life, or indeed if he was a civilian - he might have been an active NCO.  The 4th Class probably would have silver swords on the ribbon, so odds are he is not a candidate anyway.

I don't know about the third bar. The Saxon ribbons indicate a Vizefeldwebel/Feldwebel type.  I am not sure what the blue ribbon is supposed to be. My first thought was the Württemberg Friedrich Orden, and possibly he was commissioned late in the war in IR 105, but the precedence is wrong.  A German war decoration from any state should precede the Honor Cross for Combatants, while a foreign decoration should come after the Saxon Dienstauszeichnung.  The Hungarian War Commemorative Medal should also come after the Saxon Dienstauszeichnung.