A P L M UP FOR GRABS

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Learned Gentlemen of the Jury,

Care to post your opinions on this piece,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Prussia-Germany-Pour-l...1QQcmdZViewItem

Can't be to careful before parting with one's dosh, mullah, spondulacks, odds, Greenbacks, Cabbage, etc...etc...

Kev in Deva.

[Guest Darrell]

A starting bid of $4500 and no Reserve etc. would make me have serious doubts right off the bat

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

That's about as pretty as the enamel can get.

If 1920's, the ribbon would still be correct. (?)

This is NOT a reproduction, wrong word... Post WWI pieces made by Wagner are legitimate.

Edited April 1, 2006 by Brian von Etzel

[Tim Tezer]

Well, since I'm the one who's selling it, there' no point in giving my opinion, but In case it doesn't sell I'm curious to hear people's feedback.

Darrell - are you suggesting that the price is too low? I am NOT offering it as a wartime issued piece, so I can't really justify asking more than that for it. If somebody wants to pay me more, that's OK by me....

Brian - a ribbon is just a ribbon. If the buyer wants a period ribbon, I can get one for him.

Tim

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Tim, it's just as pretty as it gets. I just don't know how you'd date it so accurately to the 1920's. Most of us have been leary of that. We've all been trying to get the post WWI to 1945 items dated to no avail.

[Tim Tezer]

I'll admit, it's difficult to put a date on it, and I know there will be some who would just as soon stay away from a piece that isn't made EXACTLY the way they were made pre-1918. For that reason, the price I'm shooting for is a shot in the dark, but you can't fault me for trying. After all, the bonafide pre-1919 pieces marked for .938 silver content etc. are fetching upwards of $12,000 today.

As Wagner was not an official maker of awards during the 3rd Reich era (at least after the creation of the LDO in 1941), it would appear that they stopped making awards some time in the 1930's (although they were still in business and made Luftwaffe Honor Goblets). If we assume they didn't produce very many PLMs - for the same reason we're all pretty skeptical about post-war PLMs: there was very little demand - then it seems unlikely they would have had to keep producing them over a period of time. So it seems logical to me that they would have been made in the 1920's.

I bought this piece from a prominent German dealer who presented it as "circa 1925". My intention was to use it as a trade item, but the deals I had hoped for didn't materialize, so I'm selling it. I certainly don't mean to misrepresent it, but I think I've done my homework pretty well on this one. It may not be the best example on the market, but it's a far sight better than most.

Tim

[Les]

That's about as pretty as a reproduction can get.

If 1920's, the ribbon would still be correct.

So, nice try on the marketing but no cigar.

Brian,

Reproduction? That's a word with loaded meaning.

I'm assuming Tim knows the difference between struck and cast medals, and there's a specific die flaw on the reverse of the medal (that's also present on your grandfather's and other original wartime pieces) that is also present on Friedlander pieces. I won't mention what that specific die flaw is other than to mention someone who is very adept at making photo comparisons compared a Friedlander PlM to your grandfathers PlM (Brian, you'll know who the person making cmparisons is), and a few other Wagner and/or Friedlander PlMs owned by members of this forum and the WAForum.

Tim's was struck from heavily worn Wagner dies, and the chasing on the eagles breasts to "freshen up" the feathers can be seen in one late war Wagner PlM that is featured in Previtera's "Prussian Blue." The silve content stamp matter is one element that indicates post-war manufacture, and the fact it was struck from original dies does narrow it down to having been made after WWI and before Wagner went out of business.

The presence of a die flaw on Tim's and the wartime originals demonstrates it was made frmo original dies....in all probability by Wagner and before 1945. What's the adage about the dies don't lie?

Some would call anything made after the time a piece was originally manufactured and awarded a 'reproduction" although that would mean any and all EKIs from the 1914-1918 era made prior to 1945, would be "reproductions" if that definition is used. Some on the otherhand use a looser definition that accepts any medals made in Germany (or Austria as part of the 1938-45 Reich) as not being a reproduction piece.

If you prefer the first and very limited defintion of having to be made before November 11, 1918 as a definition of "original" does that mean a PlM recipient who bought a buttonhole mini PlM device to wear while in civlian dress, -after- that date was wearing a reproduction?

Les

Edited March 31, 2006 by Les

[Biro]

Tims piece was struck on the Wagner/Friedlander dies.

Anyone who can not afford the 12k plus for wartime version (938 marked,no chasing etc...) should see this as ABSOLUTELY as close as they will get to a legitimate PLM.

Niemans last postwar Godet sold for around 6k... so in that respect it's 'cheap'.

So am I now 'shilling' for Tim? Who cares - it is what he says it is and it deserves a good home.

Marshall

Edited April 1, 2006 by Biro

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Reproduction is probably not the right word, for this PlM. The enameling looks as pretty as it gets and I meant that. My thoughts were whoever produced my grandfather's PlM in 1918 was the same man working on the enamel on this piece. The workmanship and style in my opinion. It just 'looks' that way to me.

With better photos it would be interesting to compare the piece Tim has for not only the enamel but the writing and see if it was the same artist.

Reproductions is NOT the right word for the 1920 or 30's or 40's. So many people still in Wehrmacht service required new versions to dress up their then present day uniforms. I have a few photos of some of them wearing RKs and PlMs and the PlMs do NOT look like the original issue, they are more stylized such as the one Tim has for sale, at least in my opinion from the photos.

Wouldn't a timeline on these Wagner pieces be a great thing? Looking at the die flaw(s) and looking for a progression.

I have no desire to ever sell my grandfather's pieces. They sit in a bank deposit box for another 30 years so value is of no consequence to me. And located in the SDB they bring the insurance rates down so value is no matter. The history of it all matters.

Tim, I wish I had THAT one here at the house to replace the one I can't keep here. It looks like a next generational piece stylized for the times.

On a further note let's really talk what in my opinion is the rarity of the post-WWI Wagners... I can speak to only one civilian who wore his PlM postwar no more than 30 times until his death. He wore the miniatures every day in his lapel. He had at least one miniature and often wore just the ribbon in a button hole device. That would mean to me at least, that the full sized PlMs postwar were demanded primarily by those still in uniform. To me a rare piece. Which means for me, my opinion, this piece is worth every nickel of a wartime piece based, in my opinion, on the enamel of that piece.

[Guest Darrell]

Darrell - are you suggesting that the price is too low? I am NOT offering it as a wartime issued piece, so I can't really justify asking more than that for it. If somebody wants to pay me more, that's OK by me....Tim

That was my first thought Tim. But reading up more on what other more experienced collectors say ... I will stand corrected. STILL ... based on the time frame (20's thru ....), It would scare the BEJEEZUZ out of me to have NO RESERVE or start it this low .... JMO

Edited April 1, 2006 by Darrell

[Tim Tezer]

Wouldn't a timeline on these Wagner pieces be a great thing? Looking at the die flaw(s) and looking for a progression.

I hope to be able to do exactly that at some point, so of course I will be archiving the photos of this one. The really hard thing is to find any that have a known history, so that you can pinpoint a date. That's not likely to happen, but I may be able to come up with enough photos of "transitional" pieces to put together a collage showing how the dies deteriorated over time.

Tim

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I've spent some time looking at the enamel and lettering. Looks very nice. The eagles are so different in so many ways. Look at the necks and beaks. Besides the eagles being reworked is there any other theory on these? Different eagle die?

[Les]

I've spent some time looking at the enamel and lettering. Looks very nice. The eagles are so different in so many ways. Look at the necks and beaks. Besides the eagles being reworked is there any other theory on these? Different eagle die?

I brought this old thread with the same PlM in it, back up to the top for a bit, so that some of the details of the eagles can be seen better.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6116

Brian, I think the eagles were made from the same dies, and if you look closely at (.........specifc detail deleted in the interests of protecting an original, rather than exposing a fake..........) there are some specific details that can only be accounted for by having been made from the same dies.

The heads, beaks, and breast feathers (or cross-hatching) are different enough that the medals do look considerably different and that's attributable to heavy wear on the dies. (The dies may have been bronze, or a soft steel not intended to mass production of -hundreds- of PlMs made not out of gold, but in silver. That would have a major impact on die wear.)

Comparing the lettering/fonts doesn't help much because there seems to be a range of differences in the lettering, that give pause to think over with regards to 'why."

Les

Edited April 3, 2006 by Les

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Reason I'm thinking the eagles are from a different die is the necks are smaller than the original. Some differences also in the feather spacing but I'd want to really see same size photos to photos for comparison to be sure. Hand finishing each eagle rather than a new die and trimming off the necks and heads seems a stretch.

The letters seem to have some enamel overflow effects I think but not again entirely sure. Looking at a few of the letters they seem absolutely perfectly matched and others perhaps the enamel is obscuring lines and creating differences. Again, on a few of the letters it looks entirely the same.

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I'm surprised this did not sell.

[Stogieman]

I'm not. There's a finite number of people privy to the details of what's right, what is not. List it for $9.99, same description, watch it sell for 3K plus. Funny, isn't it. I have the same problem as well. You cannot get someone to pony up to the bar for anything akin to what a real one is worth...... even this one. But put a fake Imperial Aviation badge on eBay and you are guaranteed $400 minimum every single time.......

You can't fix stupid.

[Tim Tezer]

Well, I'm licking my wounds, but in some ways I think it's kind of funny. There was a Spanish copy paired with a fake zeppelin badge that even had bogus engraving on the PLM, which was getting lots of bids. Anybody see what that sold for?

I'm going to put the PLM on the market right here on the GMIC and I'll be guaranteed a more knowledgeable audience.

Tim

[Stogieman]

Hey Tim, post a link in your sales thread back to the discussion. It will help!