Another NCO private purchase tunic:

[Les]

Stogie commented about how not seeing many "private purchase" NCO tunics....here's another one from my collection that's going into storage during the "great moving project" coming up for me.

I'll do this in the reverse order photos are usually shown, as teasers, and so that forum folk can see how quickly they can figure out some of the specifics of the tunic.

Here's the back of the tunic first....

Les

[Les]

Look closely at the underlayment on the shoulder strap of the photo above....notice the color? Ok...now here's the inside of the tunic, showing the maker label which is heavily worn, but can be read by holding the item on an angle to a light source and looking at the thread pattern. This guy bought an officer style tunic, although he was not an officer.

The next photo will provide hefty clues...look closely at the tunic before proceeding to the next image.

[Les]

Here's the front of the tunic...notice the officer type pattern with the patch pockets, EKI loop on the breast pocket, and .....look closely at that collar and what you can barely see of the shoulder straps. The photo is intentionally a little blurry so the suspense can be kept up for one more photo....

[Les]

Allright....enough suspense, bad photos and my commentary. Here's a decent shot of the tunic collar, and the shoulder strap(s). There should be a numeral on the straps. The holes for the prongs are present, and if there was a number, it would have been a "1", "2", or a "3."

Ok...I know what it is. Chip, I'm disqualifying you (and Dan). No harm meant, but you know these things and I'd like someone else to wave their hand in front of the class. If no one responds in a day or so, then feel free to point out the details.

The condition of this one is a little grubby but considering what it is, that it screams "been there" and it's grown on me over the years I've had it (and others).

Enjoy it guys....I'll post other photos in the fall when I can unpack everything in a new location close to Bob H's federal witness protection programe hide-out.... java script:emoticon('', 'smid_20')

[Les]

By the way, I have -no- idea who the original owner of the tunic was. There's no visible name or markings inside the tunic, or the tunic pockets. Nada lada enchilada to go on for one of the many "invisible" NCOs.

Les

[Guest Rick Research]

OK, I'll risk it...

Bavarian (obviously), with front collar edge as worn by Offizierstellvertreters and Feldwebel-Leutnants.

But!!!

What are you hinting at about the straps?

If this was aviation, would there not be collar litzen and winged props?

My impression (and am by no means a uniform expert) would be that this is a Beamtenstellvertreter of Garnisonverwaltung (pale sky blue Waffenfarbe), missing the crown shield of military officials from the straps. The underlay looks that color rather than the "mechanized transport all sorts" gray.

???

[Glenn J]

Rick,

My impression (and am by no means a uniform expert) would be that this is a Beamtenstellvertrer of Garnisonverwaltung (pale sky blue Waffenfarbe), missing the crown shield of military officials from the straps. The underlay looks that color rather than the "mechanized transport all sorts" gray

That was my first impression but a Beamtenstellvertreter's shoulder strap braid also surrounded the base end of the strap (like a Wehrmacht Unterfeldwebel) and wore no collar Tresse. Perhaps this is the tunic of a Feldunterarzt minus the Aesculapian Staff?

Regards

Glenn

[Les]

The colour of the strap is closer to medium blue, not pale blue.

Here's a close up of the collar showing both the NCO tresse and a small strip of heavily worn and discolored Bavarian braid.

The guy that wore this wasn't likely to be pulling a trigger, and certainly not a flier. If anything this guy kept a firm eye on clocks and...schedules.

Whether those loops for a breast badge (EKI? Wound badge? Post war Freikorp? Collector add on?) are something he actually needed....I can't say and wouldn't bet the ranch on the loops being pre-1918.

Les

[Guest Rick Research]

Ah... naughty Les-- I thought you were setting us up for some sort of Trick Question.

Now that my Herbert Lom twitch is back under control, and Glenn has ruled that rank out ...

with the color the strap is:

how about Offizierstellvertreter in a TRAIN Bataillon?

[Les]

Ah... naughty Les-- I thought you were setting us up for some sort of Trick Question.

Now that my Herbert Lom twitch is back under control, and Glenn has ruled that rank out ...

with the color the strap is:

how about Offizierstellvertreter in a TRAIN Bataillon?

Rick....yeppers, you win the Kewpie doll of your choice (if she'll go along with it) ! I didn't want to make it all too easy. java script:emoticon('', 'smid_7')

Les

[Daniel Murphy]

Les,

Great untouched (except for the loops maybe) officer pattern bluse. I knew it right off without the hints. Train in this case refers to the supply train. Instead of clocks and schedules, this man would would more likely be completing requisition forms and deciding how much of each type of item to send to each unit. That plus, perhaps, running a little black market on the side. Each train battalion was attached to an army corps. Therefore the hint for 1,2 or 3 on the boards referred to which Bavarian army corps it was attached to. They contained supply, medical and postal detachments to name a few. The railway units were the Eisenbahn battalions. Can you tell if there were ever any NCO disks on the collar? Most men of this rank were promoted from senior NCO rank (Sergeanten, Vizefeldwebel) and would have had disks.

Dan Murphy

Edited April 30, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Les]

Les,

Great untouched (except for the loops maybe) officer pattern bluse. I knew it right off without the hints. Train in this case refers to the supply train. Instead of clocks and schedules, this man would would more likely be completing requisition forms and deciding how much of each type of item to send to each unit. That plus, perhaps, running a little black market on the side. Each train battalion was attached to an army corps. Therefore the hint for 1,2 or 3 on the boards referred to which Bavarian army corps it was attached to. They contained supply, medical and postal detachments to name a few. The railway units were the Eisenbahn battalions. Can you tell if there were ever any NCO disks on the collar? Most men of this rank were promoted from senior NCO rank (Sergeanten, Vizefeldwebel) and would have had disks.

Dan Murphy

Dan, no sign of collar disks were ever present. I had the same thought you did when I first got the tunic and looked very carefully. That doesn't mean they weren't there, only that there's no puckering inside the collar if the thread went all the way through the collar, or needle/thread scars on the outer surface of the collar.

I know the difference between Eisenbahn (railway) and "train" (supply/intendance) units. The "hint" I tossed out about the guy spending more time paying attention to clocks and schedules was to get a mental response of "train" much along the same line as someone playing the game "charades" will use all sorts of mental images to get the word(s) out. I assumed that once the word "train" got tossed out that there would be some tag on how the word was used and a "correction."

You're right, this guy could have run a black market supply of old chickens, re-cycled Belgian "mares" for artillery remounts, and items that fell off the back of a truck headed for a divisional officer's mess before it got there in return for who knows what.

If he really did earn any medals, it was probably "quid pro quo" for favors rendered, bribes, or what he knew or had on a staff someone or other...?

Les