Austria-Hungary Doctor von Nobody's GERMAN Austrian Ribbon Bar

[Guest Rick Research]

This 15mm width ribbon bar is unusual for a number of reasons:

It is of classic Austrian construction-- note the typical "too short" simple bent pin and wire catch reverse BUT although it is silk, and there are NO awards from after 1930... THIS is a width not previously seen by me on any pre-1938 Austrian ribbons. 40mm wide was standrad for them, with 20mm half-widths as oddball concessions to group mountings.

The precedence is garbled, which may suggest a date in the "anything goes" 1920s.

The wearer was very definitely a medical officer, and probably a Reserve or Landwehr one at that-- given the absence of a long service cross ribbon.

1) Franz Joseph Order-Knight "with war decoration" is presumably intended here by the GREEN enamel wreath.

2) A WW1 frontline bravery/merit award (Military Merit CRoss? Signum Laudis? Who can tell with the generic ribbon and its all purpose Xs device!!)

3) 1898 Military Jubilee Medal

4) 1908 Military Jubilee Cross (these both given to regulars and reservists)

5) 1917 Karl Troop Cross (which should be in position #3)

6) Prussian 1914 Iron Cross 2nd Class (which should be in #8 position)

7) Marianerkreuz (indicating a Teutonic Order hospitals connection and "von" noble status)

8) 1914 Red Cross decoration, presumably deliberately without a war decoration wreath and so for NON wartime related Red Cross merit

9) rather unexpectedly, a Baden Order of the Z?hringen Lion-- probably pre-war since no Xs

10) Turkish War Medal star, combatant ribbon

So possibly a regular army medical officer circa 1918 who hadn't received his XXV Cross yet... or a reserve medical officer; a member of the nobility; and with some pre-war affiliation (regimental "Chef" of his Austro-Hungarian regiment?) to Baden. Probably rank equivalent to a Captain, or perhaps Major. Not particlarly well decorated for war services to his own nation (2!), but received awards from Prussia and Turkey.

If there was some strange period when GERMAN sized ribbons were official in the First Republic's Bundesheer, I would appreciate seeing any photos-in-wear out there!

This concludeth my 4,000th post here.

[Iver]

Rick Research: I must correct you...

The first ribbon is not FJO-knight, but Military merit cross - Milit?rverdiestkreuz

The second ribbon is probably Military merit medal - Milt?rverdienstmedaille

[Josef Rietveld]

Rick Research: I must correct you...

The first ribbon is not FJO-knight, but Military merit cross - Milit?rverdiestkreuz

The second ribbon is probably Military merit medal - Milt?rverdienstmedaille

That is also my opinion and makes sense

josef

[Ulsterman]

Would an MMM have been awarded to a @ Hauptman-level medical officer?

Edited December 2, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Iver]

Ulsterman: I don?t see a problem in this... :)

[Ulsterman]

I did not imply there was a problem.

I asked a question for edification.

Was it normal for a mid level A-H medical officer to get an MMM?

Was there a hierarchy of supporting role awards: MMM first and then MC and then SL or what?

I do not know.

thanks

[Iver]

Ulsterman: With my reply I wanted to say it was normal...

Sorry, but what is "SL"? :unsure:

[Ulsterman]

SL= Signum Laudis.

I have been told that almost every mid- level Austro-Hungarian officer got one, but combat officers got them quicker. An exception is below, a man who I think was a POW camp commander.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Iver]

Ulsterman: Military Merit Medal (milit?rverdiestmedaille) = SIGNVM LAVDIS (its text on rear side of MMM)

[Ulsterman]

AH!

Thanks.

My confusion evaporates!

I thought "MMM" meant the little merit cross.

I am used to thinking "SL" for what you are calling the "MMM".

My error.

Thanks again.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Iver]

Ulsterman:

[Guest Rick Research]

I have never seen a round green enamelled wreath used to indicate ANY Austro-Hungarian award worn by an Austro-Hungarian--hence my guesswork. Even the normal ?M3K (Mili?rverdienstkreuz 3. mit KD) whose German recipients seem to have loved that device is found merely as crossed swords on any pre-1938 Austrian ribbon bars I've ever seen. I have never encountered an Austrian ribbon bar from before 1938 with the round gold ?M3K wreath device.

There isn't actually anything that could or should have been a round green enamelled wreath on an Austro-Hungarian award, anyway! Well, MAYBE on the Red Cross with war decoration awards-- but there it sure is NOT on this bar!

So, after this old old thread has been napping in the back pages all this time--

have you ever seen the "German size" ribbons like this from BEFORE 1938?

I have never been able to find ANY official regulations concerning Austrian ribbon bars. :(