Heer Hauptmann Fritz Grosse IR378

[notned]

Hello Gents,

I have jumped into the big bad world of Tunics!

This one is for an Infantry Hauptmann named Fritz Grosse the Adjutant of Grenadier Regiment 378 of 169 Infanterie division.

Formed in 1940 ( Jan) First in Action during the French campaign, apparently arrived in Finland from Norway during the early stages of the Russian campaign and was in action on the Kandalaksha front in 1942 remained in Finland ever since.

( exerpt taken from the German Order of Battle 1944)

He was awarded the;

EKII

EKI

CCCin silver

IAB

Wound badge

I know this as the Gent i bought it of, bought it directly off the family and has His EKI!

the family has the CCC in silver and the other badges were lost over time.

I have first dibs when he eventually sells the EKI, hopefully soon! cos i need one for the tunic! and what better than the Original one he was awarded!!!

I am also in the process of aquiring the other decorations from various sources...( even though they are not originally Grosses' just to complete the display)Have the IAB and the wound badge so far...

The tunic is in good condition with period tailor repairs to both elbows. there are a few moth holes but nothing big. the collar tabs seem to have been wet at some stage and the dye from the collar ( green) has soaked into the tabs.They are correct with the period Zig zag stitching and the liner fixings.

There is a button sewn to the shoulder under the right shoulder strap so this must have been for the adjutants aiguilette. Am getting one for the tunic soon.

The tailors label is in a lower pocket, ( the only one!) and it reads,

Oscar Beierlein, Clauchau i/Sa Theaterstrasse 59

Dated Mai 36 to Hauptmn Grosse.

It has a opening for the dagger hangers to fit through, but no hanger clip.

The pockets are lined and the left breast one has loops for 3 awards and the CCC, Strangely no loops for a ribbon bar...

The Breast Eagle is in very good condition with no tears to the bullion!

Al in All a nice tunic with provenance!

If anyone can elaborate more about GR378 and its history i would be very much gratefull!

AND...on the small chance ( entirely possible nowadays with the Internet) ANYONE has any of his documents i would love the opportunity to reunite these items with the Tunic!

Oh! and the Aigiulette shown was the sellers...he wont sell...Bugger!

And the buttons for the top pockets are missing...anyone got a couple spare???

Enjoy!

Kind regards

Paul

Edited May 6, 2006 by notned

[notned]

More pics

[notned]

These are the sellers pics...gotta get some decent pics with the camera soon!

Here is the shoulderstrap details

And the Tailors label

[Paul R]

Paul! Beautiful tunic grouping!!! I hope that you get that EK1 soon!!

[Guest Rick Research]

SOMEBODY'S "family" has been VERY naughty!

No May 1936 Hauptmann was STILL a Hauptmann at war's end.

There were actually only two in Saxony in the army with that rank at that time--

a WW1 retread (Hauptmann (E) 1.12.33#116 of ARTILLERY, at Weissenfels Wehrmeldeamt of Naumburg a/Saale Wehrbezirkskommando-- ended up as Oberstleutnant (S) 1.3.42 #28, alive May 1944) and a regular who had not served in the Reichsheer so must have come from the Weimar era Polize (Major 1.10.37#51 commanding IInd Ersatz/Inf Regt 102 at Freiburg i/Sachsen January 1939 and apparently killed some time before 1944).

The name, date, rank, and loops do not match up.

[Simon Orchard]

The 169 ID pulled out of Finland along with the rest of the 20 Geb. Armee in the autumn of '44. After a slow move down through Norway it ended the war back on the continent.

A CCC in silver is highly unusual for the scandinavian theater. Do you know anything of the man's paperwork?

[notned]

Thanks Simon,

No i do not have any of the mans paperwork...the guy i bought it off said he got it in a market direct off the family... and he queried them about the mans medals...and they told him that he had a CCC in silver and they were not selling it...but he did get his EKI which i am trying to buy off him!

Maybe the CCC was awarded for the French campaign? or perhaps the Kandalaksha campaign? who knows...

Can anyone do some research into this Regiment? as i have no idea where to start...a google search brings up very little.

Rick, you mean to say that nothing matches? but you are quoting 2 examples from Saxony only...what about the rest of Germany?

I want to dig deeper into the mystery...Hmmmm....exciting isn't it!

Cheers

Paul

The 169 ID pulled out of Finland along with the rest of the 20 Geb. Armee in the autumn of '44. After a slow move down through Norway it ended the war back on the continent.

A CCC in silver is highly unusual for the scandinavian theater. Do you know anything of the man's paperwork?

[Guest Rick Research]

A May 1936 Hauptmann was not still a Hauptmann... in 1944 to get a "CCC in silver."

And as for the said captain Grosse BEING in Saxony--

what OTHER business would have brought in somebody from... Berlin... Hamburg.... Stuttgart... to seek out the world renowned tailoring establishment of

[attachmentid=38152]

Glauchau, Saxony? I think we can assume a LOCAL.

Something's been messed with-- the shoulder boards, the award loops... possibly even the label itself since in recent years I HAVE seen labels swapped into tunics to embellish a tale.

This is one story that doesn't make sense, as found.

[Simon Orchard]

Maybe the CCC was awarded for the French campaign? or perhaps the Kandalaksha campaign? who knows...

The CCC in silver required 30 close combat days recorded for the individual, something which generally took years to accumulate. The 169 ID was involved in the French campaign for no more than a couple of weeks at the end of the campaign against the maginot line, it was sent towards Metz from the North to outflank the border fortresses. It later carried out offensive actions in Finland during the summer and autumn of '41 but from 1942 until the autumn of 1944 it was engaged in static warfare. In no way am i saying an officer with this regiment couldn't have gained enough close combat days to earn the award but it is highly unusual.

I have to agree with Rick, it just doesn't add up. IR 378 wasn't formed until Nov. 39 anyway and as he says there's just no way a 1936 infantry hauptmann was still a hauptmann in 194445. Especially not such a well decorated one.

Edited May 7, 2006 by Simon Orchard

[notned]

Simon,

You raise a good point there...Hmmm, i will check back with the seller and see if he was mistaken with it being silver...

I am certain that the loops are period manufacture by the tailor, and are definately high up enough from the pocket to be for a CCC.....OR am i totally wrong here???

Hmm, ok Rick, we can assume that he was from Saxony....lets think outside the square a bit...and assume he may have been either stationed there for a period of time in 36 or perhaps just on the offchance had his tunic made there on say...recommendations from fellow officers...??

I have looked closely at the Tailors label...and its only ever been sewn to this tunic...and it was sewn to the tunic when the tunic was made...as you cannot see the stitching from any other side except the side visible.

The Shoulder boards look to be original to the tunic...well the stitching is tailor quality...and the fading under the pips is consistent with being on there from day one...so do the numbers.

The award loops for the EK are tailor made, but the other 2 look like to be field additions.

Also maybe...the name is not Grosse, but the second letter is something else...??? i am not that familiar with German names, so cannot even venture a guess....maybe someone with the Berlin phone book could look up under G and see what could fit....

I am determined to crack this mystery!

Regards

Paul

[Simon Orchard]

The Shoulder boards look to be original to the tunic...well the stitching is tailor quality...and the fading under the pips is consistent with being on there from day one...so do the numbers.

pips maybe but the numbers? that's impossible if we're to believe the label.

It seems uniform collectors in general seem to tackle these named uniforms differently to us research types. The uniform collectors go into the construction of the item whilst the researchers look at the story being told.

Not so long ago i saw this in the case of a generals uniform bought and sold for quite a sum of money. It was shown on another forum to wide acclaim amongst the uniform collector community. Yet none of them, several very experienced long time collectors had taken the elementary step of seeing if the decorations on the jacket actually matched with the career and known photos of the general in question...which they didn't. Red faces all round. The point i'm driving at here is that i think with named items you have to look at the person and his story first, stitching, fading and construction second.

Edited May 7, 2006 by Simon Orchard

[notned]

Simon,

You are dead right...if we are to believe the label...there is no way that the numbers were there in 36 as this regiment was not formed until 1940. I was looking at it late at night...and maybe my subconcsious wanted to belive that this was genuine.... my brain was tired...was not thinking logically..

Yes ...read the mans career before the badges.....or supposed badges...

Can we try another angle...and look up the regiment lists? and ascertain if we have the name correct...then find out more about him that way...then we can safely assume his decorations...

[notned]

Hello again Gents,

Has no one got access to the lists to find out if he was even in the army at all...he must have been fighting in another unit before joining GR378 to get the CCC in silver...

I asked the gent i got it off and he says thats the story the family gave him...they said that he had the CCC in silver and they still had it...and would not sell...

He DID get the EKI as the seller bought it off the family when he got the tunic.

Can we try another angle...and look up the regiment lists? and ascertain if we have the name correct...then find out more about him that way...then we can safely assume his decorations...

there is more than meets the eye with this tunic....please gents, do not dismiss this as fantasy..there has to be a logical explanation for the CCC and there HAS to be a Hauptmann Fritz Grosse in the Wehrmacht!

As for the 'a hauptmann who was a hauptmann in 36 and could not be a hauptmann at the end of the war...'

lets assume this is an old tunic of his....as it is quite small...perhaps he got bigger with age...and needed a new tunic??? this tunic has got period repairs ( tailormade) to the elbows...maybe he wanted a new smart tunic...to go with a promotion....it would need new shoulder boards for a start...and this new tunic would then sport loops for a ribbon bar....and any other additions he may have been awarded...

C'mon gents...think outside the square....

I did not outlay a goodly sum of money on this to get it poo poo'ed as a fantasy peice...there HAS to be a logical explanation behind the initial confusion....

I am determined to get to the bottom of this...

Thanks for your help!

Regards

Paul

[Simon Orchard]

Well, i assume that this guy is supposed to have survived the war? at least until '44. If he was a hauptmann in 1936 then he has to be a reserve officer as no regular infantry officer, major upwards with that name exists in the '44 rangliste. I also looked through the volksbund database, just in case and sure enough, no one of the right rank range and age is listed, other than a major borne in 1897 who died in 1947 but that doesn't fit with the tunic either.

Regiment lists? The best i think you could do would be to go through whatever archives remain for the 169 ID and IR 378 and hope the name turns up. Alternatively you could ask the wast, you have a rank and date to go on even though the name is not that uncommon.

It's one thing to think outside the box but don't try and make a round peg fit into a square hole either. The fact of the matter is, the story currently being presented simply doesn't work, something is amiss but nobody has said the tunic is bad.

[notned]

Hi Simon,

Ok so he is not on the rankliste....maybe he was killed in the war??? who knows...

what do you mean by this....

Alternatively you could ask the wast

Wast?? what is this please?

Do you have any idea how i could find the Regiment lists??? i have a friend in Germany who could look for it, as he will be able to read the German and get access perhaps, to the archives..but he needs a starting point...a place or archives to search..

I know no-one said that it was bad...but i bought it on the basis that there was a story and a name etc..to research it...make it more real....and i am sorry if i sound dis-illushioned...but I AM!

I desperately wanted this to add up...i do not usually buy this sort of thing...but when i spotted this...i just had to have it...because of the decorations, the unit number and the name...all led me to believe that i could trace this man...make some part of history come alive....

Oh well....be the last Blimmin tunic i buy!

[Simon Orchard]

The WASt holds the records of German soldiers, it takes time but they may be able to find your man's service record. In the long run it could be the easiest way to do it.

link

Regiment lists? i know of none, we're talking WWII here, not WWI. KIA during the war? I already said i'd looked through the volksbund database (online database of the German war graves comission) and no one of the right kind of rank and age is listed. Bearing in mind where he served, he ought to be had he been killed.

If you want to look into the archives you've got a choice of NARA in the states or the Bundesarchiv in Germany. As you're on the other side of the planet, either getting someone to have a look for you or alternatively ordering microfilm copies from NARA (US national archives, which hold microfilm copies of captured German records) is the way to go. The records of the 169 Infanterie Division are under RH 26-169 at the bundesarchiv. The correct roll numbers from NARA i'd have to ask as i don't have the relevant guide for that division.

It's a bit irritating for me actually because from the whole 20 Geb. Armee the 163 and 169 divisions are the two i have the least information on. Certainly not down to the level i'd like.

[notned]

Simon,

thanks ever so much for the link to the WAST records, i have made an enquiry already.

Hauptmann Grosse survived the war and died in the 1960's.No further info on him i am afraid..like he eventual rank etc...

will also try the Bundsarchiv my friend in Germany will look for me.

Thanks again for your help!

Kind regards

Paul

[Simon Orchard]

Let us know what you find out Paul, i'm as curious as you are now!