Inniskilling Fusiliers cuff rank tunic

[USN]

Good evening gentlemen,

 

I recently acquired a small group of uniforms off of Facebook of all places and this one was amongst them, I am not the most knowledgeable but I have what appears to be a well tailored uniform for a captain from the Royal Inniskilling Fusilier regiment, it has a stamp in the left shoulder which dates it too 1916, and appears to have at one point had its proper insignia pinned into the collar and perhaps some insignia sewn to the left cuff? It also had a leather tab sewn inside of the left breast of the tunic which I'm unsure of its purpose. Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated! 

 

Many thanks,

Will

 

More photos

 

 

 

 

[USN]

Does anyone know how to identify the proper collar insignia for this period tunic? I have seen a few different examples but am unsure of what would be the proper style.

[ayedeeyew]

On 18/02/2024 at 10:39, USN said:

... It also had a leather tab sewn inside of the left breast of the tunic which I'm unsure of its purpose....

 

 

 

 

It's to fix your pocket watch on it's strap or chain.

[Farkas]

On 23/02/2024 at 03:21, USN said:

Does anyone know how to identify the proper collar insignia for this period tunic? I have seen a few different examples but am unsure of what would be the proper style.

 

These are the officers badges

but I’m pretty sure officers would have used a subdued version, or an other ranks version, on the khaki dress during ww1.

I can’t find a record of ‘E. Clark & Sons’, is there more on the tailors label? maybe it’s bigger & folded under on the left? 

to me it’s an unusual label for a private purchase tunic,  though hopefully if I can see the ‘1916’ stamp you mention that will help explain its origin and regardless it would be interesting as that’s also unusual on an officers tunic….  
 

tony
 

 

 

 

 

[ayedeeyew]

11 hours ago, Farkas said:

 

...to me it’s an unusual label for a private purchase tunic,  though hopefully if I can see the ‘1916’ stamp you mention that will help explain its origin and regardless it would be interesting as that’s also unusual on an officers tunic….  
 

 

People tend to forget that increasingly from the mid-war period onwards an option available to officers in the field (and those less well off) was to purchase/replace their kit through the War Department. The markings Will describes and the label he shows are typical for these "off the peg" garments (I have previously seen the general quality described as "workman-like"). They have a much lower survival rate than the usual private purchase items, and I consider myself very fortunate in having a 1918 dated pair of the trousers of this type:

Edited March 11 by ayedeeyew

[Farkas]

9 hours ago, ayedeeyew said:

 

People tend to forget that increasingly from the mid-war period onwards an option available to officers in the field (and those less well off) was to purchase/replace their kit through the War Department. The markings Will describes and the label he shows are typical for these "off the peg" garments (I have previously seen the general quality described as "workman-like"). They have a much lower survival rate than the usual private purchase items, and I consider myself very fortunate in having a 1918 dated pair of the trousers of this type:

The stamps on these trousers were put there by the recipient, it’s his unit and the date. ‘A’ Company presumably and 1918.

 

If there was also a War Department arrow then the ‘A’ would presumably mean Aldershot, a quality assessment facility opened in 1916 to be responsible for Officers uniforms.

 

 

So

21 hours ago, Farkas said:

if I can see the ‘1916’ stamp you mention that will help explain its origin

 

[ayedeeyew]

2 hours ago, Farkas said:

The stamps on these trousers were put there by the recipient, it’s his unit and the date. ‘A’ Company presumably and 1918.

 

 

This is 100% incorrect I'm afraid. Perfectly as marked before it ever got to the original owner.

[USN]

My apologies I forgot to post the photo of the stamp which is identical to yours just with a 1916 date.

[Farkas]

On 12/03/2024 at 01:52, ayedeeyew said:

 

This is 100% incorrect I'm afraid. Perfectly as marked before it ever got to the original owner.

I don’t see why you disliked any of what I said and I may be taking you the wrong way but for now I’ll answer you in the same tone…

In my opinion the stamp on your trousers was applied at a unit level once received by the Quartermaster or soldier. Pre war more detailed and done by the soldier, later becoming more basic and usually by the CQM.

 

For you to claim I’m 100% incorrect so ‘directly’, of course I have to presume you must know

what the stamp is there for?

& who put it there?

Honestly I don’t think you do know…

but if you do, I’ll be happy to hear about a stamp I’ve not known of before.

 

I’m here to learn, so please enlighten me.

 

tony 🍻

[ayedeeyew]

On 12/03/2024 at 23:47, USN said:

My apologies I forgot to post the photo of the stamp which is identical to yours just with a 1916 date.

 

No need to apologise Will, your description of the marking and in particular the location being in the shoulder made it clear it was one of these typically off-the-peg tunics made available to officers through the War Department as I mentioned earlier. And clearly not "put there by the recipient" 😉 It's a gorgeous find and all the rarer for it. 

 

Do you have any other shots of the cuff rank? From the first shot it looks like the owner may have been promoted from Lieutenant to Captain, hence one mismatched "pip" where he had the rank updated. The marks of sewing on the left cuff are likely from where a "Wounded Stripe" was once fixed as this is the exact location they should be worn, eg:

 

 

Army Order 204. 6/7/16

 

...the following distinctions in dress will be worn on the service dress jacket by all officers and soldiers who have been wounded in any of the campaigns since 4th August, 1914:-

 

'Strips of gold Russia braid, No.1, two inches in length, sewn perpendicularly on the left sleeve of the jacket to mark each occasion on which wounded.

 

In the case of officers, the lower end of the first strip of gold braid will be immediately above the upper point of the flap on cuff...

 

Edited March 14 by ayedeeyew

[USN]

1 hour ago, ayedeeyew said:

 

No need to apologise Will, your description of the marking and in particular the location being in the shoulder made it clear it was one of these typically off-the-peg tunics made available to officers through the War Department as I mentioned earlier. And clearly not "put there by the recipient" 😉 It's a gorgeous find and all the rarer for it. 

 

Do you have any other shots of the cuff rank? From the first shot it looks like the owner may have been promoted from Lieutenant to Captain, hence one mismatched "pip" where he had the rank updated. The marks of sewing on the left cuff are likely from where a "Wounded Stripe" was once fixed as this is the exact location they should be worn, eg:

 

 

Army Order 204. 6/7/16

 

...the following distinctions in dress will be worn on the service dress jacket by all officers and soldiers who have been wounded in any of the campaigns since 4th August, 1914:-

 

'Strips of gold Russia braid, No.1, two inches in length, sewn perpendicularly on the left sleeve of the jacket to mark each occasion on which wounded.

 

In the case of officers, the lower end of the first strip of gold braid will be immediately above the upper point of the flap on cuff...

 

Unfortunately I am away from my collection but I can when I get back to it again and can show more details of the cuffs. I will have to check the other cuff for evidence of service stripes as well.

[Farkas]

All War Department Service Dress issued post June 1915 had either an RACD paper label, maybe the tunic once did, or a WD stamp.

 

All War Department stamps before, during and for years after WW1 had ‘W/|\D’…

 

Specifically in 1916 and 1918, all had W/|\D, the inspectors identification number and the inspection depots identification letter.

 

So it is not a War Department stamp.

- example below on the right.

I’ve suggested the alternative that I think it is, a ‘soldiers mark’.

- example below on the left.

 

I don’t see the problem, it’s better than a WD stamp in my opinion too 🤷‍♂️ Anyway, think I best leave you both to it. 👍

 

tony 🍻

[USN]

What would the A signify then? It doesn't appear to be specific to a tailor seeing as how his trousers have the mark but are not from the same tailor. Is it possibly some kind of mark from a depot showing the tunic was turned in and reworked? This could also explain the different cuff ranks. A lieutenant was killed and the tunic was sent through and reissued to a captain who added the proper rank insignia? I'm just spitballing some ideas.

[Farkas]

1 hour ago, USN said:

What would the A signify then? It doesn't appear to be specific to a tailor seeing as how his trousers have the mark but are not from the same tailor. Is it possibly some kind of mark from a depot showing the tunic was turned in and reworked? This could also explain the different cuff ranks. A lieutenant was killed and the tunic was sent through and reissued to a captain who added the proper rank insignia? I'm just spitballing some ideas.

In theory there were only three marks put on issued British uniforms, a paper label or the WD arrow stamp & soldiers mark.

Pre ww1 a standardised size black ink stamp with the soldiers personal details, this rarely happened in WW1 though. The unit quartermaster at some level with no now apparent system would mark them to stop any other unit pilfering them. The above 6WK I’m guessing is 6th West Kent(?) for example.

 

The abbreviation A when used by British army usually stands for Artillery. In this case it wouldn’t stop much pilfering because the the royal corps of artillery is so vast so if I had to guess it’s A company but that’s not usual on its own as far as I know.

 

I asked to see the stamp because I thought it likely to be…

(number) /|\ (letter)

the letter tells us the depot and holds clues regardless but neatly yours is the letter A which is for Aldershot.
& Aldershot was set up in 1915 specifically to handle Officers uniforms, a facility not required until the War.

As ayedee said needs demanded kit for the ‘less well off’ new breed of Officer.

 

I got to arguing the principle of why I wanted to see the stamp and the rest of it but…

I would say as you both have officers kit, and both have the A stamp, that it is most likely for Aldershot.
Possibly a stamp to direct it there or to note it being there. Perhaps there was a service to tailor a mans uniform if he received promotion 🤷‍♂️ that might explain the absence of the need for the usual acceptance stamp.

 

Lastly, re the stitching mark, I hadn’t thought of stripes, which is most likely, I thought maybe a warrant officers crown 🤷‍♂️

 

It’s an interesting find for sure.

 

tony 🍻

 

 

 

 

 

 

[USN]

1 hour ago, Farkas said:

In theory there were only three marks put on issued British uniforms, a paper label or the WD arrow stamp & soldiers mark.

Pre ww1 a standardised size black ink stamp with the soldiers personal details, this rarely happened in WW1 though. The unit quartermaster at some level with no now apparent system would mark them to stop any other unit pilfering them. The above 6WK I’m guessing is 6th West Kent(?) for example.

 

The abbreviation A when used by British army usually stands for Artillery. In this case it wouldn’t stop much pilfering because the the royal corps of artillery is so vast so if I had to guess it’s A company but that’s not usual on its own as far as I know.

 

I asked to see the stamp because I thought it likely to be…

(number) /|\ (letter)

the letter tells us the depot and holds clues regardless but neatly yours is the letter A which is for Aldershot.
& Aldershot was set up in 1915 specifically to handle Officers uniforms, a facility not required until the War.

As ayedee said needs demanded kit for the ‘less well off’ new breed of Officer.

 

I got to arguing the principle of why I wanted to see the stamp and the rest of it but…

I would say as you both have officers kit, and both have the A stamp, that it is most likely for Aldershot.
Possibly a stamp to direct it there or to note it being there. Perhaps there was a service to tailor a mans uniform if he received promotion 🤷‍♂️ that might explain the absence of the need for the usual acceptance stamp.

 

Lastly, re the stitching mark, I hadn’t thought of stripes, which is most likely, I thought maybe a warrant officers crown 🤷‍♂️

 

It’s an interesting find for sure.

 

tony 🍻

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would make perfect sense honestly, this may be a bit of a stretch but to me it makes even more sense seeing as how this was an Irish regiment and to my knowledge most were not as well off as their English counterparts. If this is correct then this would also make it a fairly early example of something coming from the Aldershot depot. Your information is always appreciated, we spoke previously about a dress uniform from the North Staffordshire Regiment and you were equally helpful there as well!

Edited March 14 by USN