Von Richtofen Crash Site

[Christophe]

Ok, first it is spelled "Richthofen" two h's gents. (...)

Stephen,

Ooops! My mistake in the title... (but can't change it...).

Ch.

Pic : 1917 edition - ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

[Christophe]

1933 edition.

Ch.

Pic : ? Christophe ? ChR Collection

[Daniel Murphy]

I would say that the holes in the back of the seat are where the cloth seat belt was attached or where the seat was attched to the framework. Looking at what is left of the plane, the souvenir hunters literally busted the plane apart to get the guns and engine off. Looking at how the seat is bent up, they did the same thing here. The enlarged rivet holes are only natural if an item is ripped apart. To have a bullet actually hit where one of the rivets was, is not impossible, but unlikely. What are the odds. Whether he was shot by Brown, the Aussie gunner or by some unknown frightened Aussie when he tried to get out of the plane, we will never know. All of the particpants are long dead and their stories for the most part support themselves. Were an Aussie vet to say years ago that he shot MvR out of hand, he would be reviled and called a liar. So if it happened, that story remained untold for a good reason.

Should every gory detail of his death be rehashed over and over again in a vain attempt to find out who shot him? No. The man was a soldier, he did his duty under some of the worst conditions possible and excelled at his job. He wasn't a saint and he wasn't evil, he was a soldier who had to kill or be killed. Eventually he was killed. Thats all. The fact that many people only remember him by how many planes he shot down, how many men he killed and his death do him a great disservice.

Here we have a theoretical death by gunshot: If a man is shot in a house and then the house is torn down and carted away before the investigators get there, will we ever know exactly how he was shot and by whom? Probably not. There is evidence he was shot, but there is no bullet remaining and the only evidence points that he was in the house and not much else. Then if two men who were at two different places and had never met each other come forward and confess to have shot him with the same calibre of weapon, how do we decide who to proscecute. There is not enough evidence to prove or disprove eithers confession and both men, with a good defence, would probably be acquitted at trial. This is one of those great mysteries that will probably never be solved. If it were solved one day, I think most would be disappointed that the investigation was now over. Others would still argue about how the conclusion was obtained.

Thanks for the great photos of where he crashed.

Dan Murphy

Edited July 30, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[StephenLawson]

I would say that the holes in the back of the seat are where the cloth seat belt was attached or where the seat was attched to the framework. Looking at what is left of the plane, the souvenir hunters literally busted the plane apart to get the guns and engine off. Looking at how the seat is bent up, they did the same thing here. The enlarged rivet holes are only natural if an item is ripped apart. To have a bullet actually hit where one of the rivets was, is not impossible, but unlikely. What are the odds. Whether he was shot by Brown, the Aussie gunner or by some unknown frightened Aussie when he tried to get out of the plane, we will never know. All of the particpants are long dead and their stories for the most part support themselves. Were an Aussie vet to say years ago that he shot MvR out of hand, he would be reviled and called a liar. So if it happened, that story remained untold for a good reason...Thanks for the great photos of where he crashed. Dan Murphy

The rivet holes were infact for ther seat frame cross member. Here is another bit of consideration. To get the body out of the aircraft the Aussies had to haul / drag the whole machine behind a hill out of German observation posts view. Then they may have had to cut the upper lonergon tubings to get the body out. A simple hack saw would save a wrenched back. The separated rear fuselage was photographed with British officers inspecting the pieces of the wreck at Bertangles Aerodrome. The popular image of the propped up shredded wreck was taken a couple of days after the crash.

Edited July 31, 2006 by StephenLawson

[Guest Jim Baker]

Steve,

Years ago I remember seeing the photos of the body. As you said, his face was damaged by the impact. I don't remember ever hearing about his being shot in the legs. I also didn't realise an autopsy was conducted.

Are those photos of the body still around someplace? They were taken in a tent and he looked to have been propped up on a board or door.

[StephenLawson]

Steve,

Years ago I remember seeing the photos of the body. As you said, his face was damaged by the impact. I don't remember ever hearing about his being shot in the legs. I also didn't realise an autopsy was conducted.

Are those photos of the body still around someplace? They were taken in a tent and he looked to have been propped up on a board or door.

Absolutely Jim; The originals are in the Imperial War museum in their MvR collection. I have copies myself. The photographs are predominantly the facial area. They had to used baking soda on his face and pulled his front teeth forward to get a reasonable shot. The autopsy as it was called was simple sliding a metal probe into the chest cavity through the wounds after inspecting the anterior surface of the entrance and exit wounds. Three doctors gave their opinions on the cause of death.

I think it was Dale Titler's Book "The Day the Red Baron Died" that discussed the lower leg wounds albeit briefly. Good to hear from you by the way.

Edited August 6, 2006 by StephenLawson

[John]

Great thread guys.

I've really enjoyed following this one! I must admit, though, I was quite disapointed, when I picked up a book 'cataloging' his kills. The vast majority were old fashioned or out of date two seaters. It sort of took away the aura for me. Am I being unfair? This great history, though.

Regards,

John

[Scott Powell]

Great thread guys.

I've really enjoyed following this one! I must admit, though, I was quite disapointed, when I picked up a book 'cataloging' his kills. The vast majority were old fashioned or out of date two seaters. It sort of took away the aura for me. Am I being unfair? This great history, though.

Regards,

John

IMHO the two seater artillery reconnisance planes that were the majority of his victims were the most important taget he could have gone after. these were the 'eyes' of the armyand artillery, and destroying these planes saved german infantry. whilst it may not be as exciting or 'hounourable' as fighting another'ace' in a dogfight, depriving the enemy of viatl information was the MVR's top priority

[John]

True, but for me, it still disapointed a bit. Perhaps it was a misconception that most of his kills were in dogfights...

regards,

John

[StephenLawson]

True, but for me, it still disapointed a bit. Perhaps it was a misconception that most of his kills were in dogfights... regards, John

Greetings John; Still all in all a dangerous business stepping out your front door. The rear gunners had one and sometimes two rear firing Lewis guns. Supposedly one slug glanced off MvR's skull July 6, 1917.

[John]

Hi Stephen,

Indeed, that I don't doubt! However, had he survived the War, I wonder what would have become of him, and what would his role(if any) have been in the run up to and during WW2? He was an aristocrat, and so what he have thought about the Third Reich?

John

[StephenLawson]

Hi Stephen, Indeed, that I don't doubt! However, had he survived the War, I wonder what would have become of him, and what would his role(if any) have been in the run up to and during WW2? He was an aristocrat, and so what he have thought about the Third Reich? John

Anything we might say would be shear speculation. That said, I think I could answer that. First look at the various Orden Pour le Merite holders and see which ones refused to swear an oath to become a Nazis. One of the surviving members Josef Jacobs refused and though G?ring was to have him arrested he sent word through Christensen (president of the Blue Max social organization) and warned Jacobs to get out of Germany. Jacobs spent the war on a farm in Norway. Not an aristocrat. MvR would have been Luftwaffe Komannduer instead of G?ring. No matter what his realtionship to the mad corporal G?ring would have been second banana at best. MvR was a great leader and the mad corporal would have found that it was either kill MvR or he would have been over thrown. MvR would have had the loyalty of the troops. It is sad to say it but the Gestapo would have probably fed MvR a black tablet as they did Rommel.

Instead MvR died the Roman soldier's death, all wounds facing the front. Just my opinion folks.

Edited August 6, 2006 by StephenLawson

[John]

Interesting point of view. One thing I was thinking, was that he may, like many other Germans, have gone to the US after the war? Or would he have left the 'LW' of that time in disgust? One thing , though, I would have been surprised if he had become a Nazi...

Regards,

John

[Guest Rick Research]

Interesting to speculate-- IF he had lived...

would he-- like so many physically and emotionally overwrought otherwise healthy young German officers have succumbed to both the despair of an all for nothing war AND the Spanish Influenza...

or died in yet another senseless that-week's-rent-money 1920s "county fair" flying show?

He, unlike most, would have been able to--if not willing to--put himself on international display as a travelling memorized lecture circuiteer and paid autograph signer: a fate, perhaps, worse than death.

I can't see him simply hanging up his goggles and back in the antedeluvian ranks of the Reichsheer's toy cavalry arm, waiting for promotion to Major when he turned 43.

One thing IS certain, he could indeed have easily forced G?ring aside as head of the new Luftwaffe, by acclaim and the new regime's insistence on his propaganda worth.

That, most likely, would have taken him where it took Ernst Udet-- suicide over being forced into decisions he could not agree with and knew to be wrong. Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen could no more have stood up to Der F?hrer's constant meddling in aircraft designs than anybody else-- having zero background in that himself, either.

All things considered, it may well have been the best for him to have gone out when and how he did, on top, confident, in a field where he is remembered by generations not even born when he was alive as a "knight of the air" and not a political hack, a has-been-- or a Nuremberg defendant.

After all, but for an accident of fate, we would be remembering the 1960s chant:

"Hey hey JFK, how many kids did YOU kill today?"

[StephenLawson]

Interesting to speculate-- IF he had lived... He, unlike most, would have been able to--if not willing to--put himself on international display as a travelling memorized lecture circuiteer and paid autograph signer: a fate, perhaps, worse than death...

Interesting story about MvR. He was on leave in Berlin. A fellow approached him asking to sign a fist full of Sanke post cards with MvR's image on them. MvR was told that they were for a local hospital for a children's ward. MvR signed them and went on his way. Later he saw the same man evidently selling these postcards in the street. Now this story is third hand so take it for what it is. Yet MvR only signed postcards after that for single individuals that he had some personal relationship with.

Edited August 7, 2006 by StephenLawson