Latvian Iron Crosses

[Tiger-pie]

I posted this under 1939 Iron Crosses, but it would have been more appropriate here. It is an recent shot (perhaps two or three years old) of some vets, I belive that they are Latvian. Can anyone confirm that from their other awards?

Regards;

Johnsy

[Jacky]

I believe that they are estonian

as all of them are wearing the estonian order of the cross of the eagle.

For naming the other medals, except the flak abzeichen, iron cross 1st class and the officers cross of the princely house order of hohenzollern

black wound badge, I would like to have a close up.

But the first stap isn't that they are latvian, but estonian.

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Kev in Deva]

And hopefully they are wearing the 1957 pattern and not the originals

Kevin in Deva

[Tony J]

The fellow on the right has an Estonian flag patch on his left sleeve.

The Infantry assault badges don't look to be de-nazified from what I can see. They have the Heersadler still so they aren't '57s.

Tony

[Tiger-pie]

I believe that they are estonian

as all of them are wearing the estonian order of the cross of the eagle.

For naming the other medals, except the flak abzeichen, iron cross 1st class and the officers cross of the princely house order of hohenzollern

black wound badge, I would like to have a close up.

But the first stap isn't that they are latvian, but estonian.

Kind regards,

Jacky

Of course, it didn't even register that the bloke on the right is wearing the Estonian national flag on his upper arm.

I think that the badge on the men either side of the Naval officer is an Infantry abzeichen. Here are some close-ups, they are the best I could do as the resolution wasn't very good to start with. I may have a better image, if I can find it I will post better images.

[Tony J]

Yep, that's Infantry assault badges alright. Look to be complete.

Tony

[Dave Danner]

The man on the right is Lt. Col. Harri Rent. I posted a thread on this almost three years ago on WAF, which is about when the photos date from. There are links to an article and some larger images: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ead.php?t=43530

[Jacky]

A clearer picture of this man was found there also:

There one can clearly see that some of his nazi-decorations aren't denazified!

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents,

Personally I find it disgusting that Estonian & Latvia to name but two of the former Communist states, totaly disregard regulations concerning the Nazi awards, it seems Fascism is alive and well and promoted in these countries.

Quite recently there was a statue dedicated to Latvian ss scum and a Latvian Army Band was sent along to play some music for the large crowd of old Latvian nazi veteran & young Latvian neo-nazi's who attended.

Ok, so they were occupied by the Russians and controled by Communisum, but you dont rewind the clock back to 1944 and continue like nothing happened.

And whats with the "plonker" at WAF "Quote Theodor: Great pictures!!! And I find it wonderful to see German WWII awards been worn today, something extremely rare to see, I believe! After all these are not political, but real bravery awards... End of Quote.)

Kevin's Non Political Rant is now over!!

Kevin in Deva

[Dave Danner]

Hallo Gents,

Personally I find it disgusting that Estonian & Latvia to name but two of the former Communist states, totaly disregard regulations concerning the Nazi awards, it seems Fascism is alive and well and promoted in these countries.

Quite recently there was a statue dedicated to Latvian ss scum and a Latvian Army Band was sent along to play some music for the large crowd of old Latvian nazi veteran & young Latvian neo-nazi's who attended.

Ok, so they were occupied by the Russians and controled by Communisum, but you dont rewind the clock back to 1944 and continue like nothing happened.

And whats with the "plonker" at WAF "Quote Theodor: Great pictures!!! And I find it wonderful to see German WWII awards been worn today, something extremely rare to see, I believe! After all these are not political, but real bravery awards... End of Quote.)

Kevin's Non Political Rant is now over!!

Kevin in Deva

I am not sure what "regulations" you refer to. Latvia and Estonia are sovereign nations. There is no international law banning the swastika, and while we may disagree with Latvia's or Estonia's choice on whether and what symbols to banish from the public square, they aren't violating any regulations. And how exactly is that an endorsement of fascism? As a product of the Anglo-American liberal tradition, I find it somewhat Orwellian to prove one's democratic fealty by banning expression.

As for the Latvian SS, it is easy to dismiss them as scum. I suppose all German soldiers (not just SS, since they all served the same system) were scum too, as were all Soviet soldiers since they too served an evil system that destroyed millions of lives. Of course, if you choose to draw a distinction between the SS and ordinary German soldiers, you should keep in mind that Latvians who wished to fight the Soviets weren't given that choice - like many ethnic legions, the Latvian Legion was incorporated into the Waffen SS. That doesn't make them Nazis. I imagine some were, and I imagine some just didn't care one way or another, which to some extent is almost as bad.

As for your last comment, I have no idea what a "plonker" is but from the context it sounds like an insult. For what it's worth, Theodor is a native of Bulgaria, someone who grew up in a communist dictatorship. I imagine you encounter enough people like that so you probably know where they're usually coming from. As I recall, I generally disagree with Theodor on most political issues, but (a) WAF has put a lot more effort into stamping out political rants over the past few years (though they always flare up, as politics is part of human nature), and (b) this was a three year old thread and I have no idea if his views are the same today, so I wouldn't go so far as to assume what was said then would be said today. Still, it does appear that he was trying to draw a distinction between purely military awards like the EK and Infantry Assault Badge, which incorporated the swastika in their design because it was the state symbol of the Nazi era, and political awards, i.e., those that symbolized Nazism per se like a Party badge. Not sure if "wonderful" is a word I would use, but I take his point, even if I don't fully agree (in the case of the Latvians, the Latvian government certainly knew what message the Russian government would take from the event, and that was as much a part of the message as honoring their fallen soldiers). When you see an old Red Army vet wearing an Order of the Red Banner and an Order of the Great Patriotic War with their hammer and sickle, do you assume he is some Commie scum pining for the Gulag, famines and Katyn Wood?

By the way, here is a 1999 photo of Gen. Adolf Ehrnrooth and here is a 2004 photo of his order pillow at his state funeral, both from the Finnish military website (warning: really big pictures!!). The Iron Cross on his medal bar has a swastika on it. Of course, most Finnish decorations have a swastika on them, but not the particular Nazi-style one rotated 45 degrees. Does the fact that Finnish veterans wore their un-denazified German decorations and the Finnish government gives them state funerals without censoring the swastika mean that fascism is alive and well in that non-former Communist state?

Edited April 14, 2007 by Dave Danner

[Kev in Deva]

Dave,

while you to are very welcome to make a comment just as I am, I am afraid I just can't agree with people wearing swastikas, wether they are old veterans, who served in the political Military formations such as the ss, or in the German ww2 Army, Navy, Airforce, Police. It has to be remembered that many Europeon as well as Americans, and Russians gave their lives to defeat hitlers mob.

It seems its becoming all to easy to try and lump Russia in with the Nazi's as being just as bad as if not worse than hitler, however for the course of WW2, Russia was a recognised ally of the west in the fight against the nazis. I niether condone the communist mentality, or nazi one.

However, I do have great respect for the people who had the guts to fight against Facsism, and the large group of skin-headed louts seen at the unveiling of the statue in Latvia were no doubt raised on grandads knee listening to the stories of how it was in the good old days. (As were many of the neo-nazis in the old East Germany, there has been a large resurgance of this in many of the ex-communist countries, and it is scary).

With regards Theo I know him outside the forums having been in contact with him over some ebay purchases, and am very surprised to hear him using the words "Wonderful to see," with regards Nazi decorations being worn in public today, again this probably stems from young members of post communist countries not appreciating the horrors of WW2.

With regards the Finns, they have tended to go their own way and do as they like, it seems to be in their nature. but they did at least stand up to hitler and his cronies and state they would have no part in the siege of Lenigrad, apart from securing their side of the line (no doubt anticipating what the Soviet reaction would have been if they did come involved.)

I dont see any of this being a Political rant, I am against the displaying of the swastika in public, and if certain countries enforce this thats ok with me, but I believe the E.U. maintains a certain policy against racism, and this symbol offends many races who had to endure the jackboot rule in ww2.

Kevin in Deva (Romania, where there are regulations forbiding in displaying of swastikas, and the hammer & sickle !)

Edited April 14, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[pluribus]

Hallo Gents,

Personally I find it disgusting that Estonian & Latvia to name but two of the former Communist states, totaly disregard regulations concerning the Nazi awards, it seems Fascism is alive and well and promoted in these countries.

Quite recently there was a statue dedicated to Latvian ss scum and a Latvian Army Band was sent along to play some music for the large crowd of old Latvian nazi veteran & young Latvian neo-nazi's who attended.

Ok, so they were occupied by the Russians and controled by Communisum, but you dont rewind the clock back to 1944 and continue like nothing happened.

And whats with the "plonker" at WAF "Quote Theodor: Great pictures!!! And I find it wonderful to see German WWII awards been worn today, something extremely rare to see, I believe! After all these are not political, but real bravery awards... End of Quote.)

Kevin's Non Political Rant is now over!!

Kevin in Deva

Dear Sir,

First, Latvia and Estonia are not former communist states. They are independent republics which were occupied by the Soviet Union.

Second, this is unbelievable if somebody in the military history forum says scum to the soldiers, no matter on what side they battled.

And last but not least, as you know there are always two sides of the coin.

pluribus

[Kev in Deva]

Dear pluribus,

my comments are made to the wearing of items with the NAZI swastika, these medals were awarded by a Nazi regime to their allies in WW2.

The ss were brainwashed political robots who enforced the nazi doctorine on their own people first, then onto the other nations of Europe.

I must ask did Estonia and Latvia offer any resistance to the German occupation of their county? or, did they do what they did when the Soviets arrived, stayed quite and said nothing.

Coming from a country who lost many people fighting against the nazi's and its allies, I like many in Europe feel an intense dislike to this symbol because of what it represents, to the many victims of nazi tyrany.

Because they were allied with the losers of WW2, Estonia and Latvian WW2 veterans could show some sympathy to the victims of the nazi's by wearing versions of the awards that have been de-natzified.

Just because your countries have seperated from Communist control, does not mean you rewind the clock back to pre-communist occupation, and carry on like nothing has changed since 1945.

Kevin in Deva.

[pluribus]

Dear pluribus,

my comments are made to the wearing of items with the NAZI swastika, these medals were awarded by a Nazi regime to their allies in WW2.

The ss were brainwashed political robots who enforced the nazi doctorine on their own people first, then onto the other nations of Europe.

I must ask did Estonia and Latvia offer any resistance to the German occupation of their county? or, did they do what they did when the Soviets arrived, stayed quite and said nothing.

Coming from a country who lost many people fighting against the nazi's and its allies, I like many in Europe feel an intense dislike to this symbol because of what it represents, to the many victims of nazi tyrany.

Because they were allied with the losers of WW2, Estonia and Latvian WW2 veterans could show some sympathy to the victims of the nazi's by wearing versions of the awards that have been de-natzified.

Just because your countries have seperated from Communist control, does not mean you rewind the clock back to pre-communist occupation, and carry on like nothing has changed since 1945.

Kevin in Deva.

Dear Kevin in Deva,

Did you ever see soviet veterans wearing their awards that have been de-sovietified? I never did.

Also, have you ever heard about diference between waffen-SS and allgemaine-SS?

By the way, not even one Estonian soldier belonged to nazy party.

About resistance http://www.hot.ee/evlliit/okup_3.htm

About resistance to the soviets http://www.balticsworldwide.com/forgotten.htm

pluribus

Edited April 27, 2007 by pluribus

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo pluribus,

lets just get a historical facts straight here, Russian veterans at the time of WW2 were allied to the Western Nations and helped to defeat the nazi's, why should they remove anything, most of these men were happy to serve their Motherland, most were ignorant peasants and not graduates of communists schools of indoctrination.

The Cold War was not the fault of the West and it was well beyond othe West's power or resourses to try and force the Soviets out of areas of Europe that they had occupied.

Most countries that the Soviets occupied and many willing collaborators from within those countries, who were more than happy to see the soviets arrive.

Under the Nazi's there was no Democratic rights, Under the Soviets there was no Democratic rights, now, as members of the E. U. you have democratic rights, however under democracy that dosent mean you can allow and upsurge in one mentality or the other, be it neo-faschist, or neo-communist.

If the respective governments of the former Communists states wish to enact legislation to ban / remove the symbols of either the Nazi's or Communists, then let them do that.

There is however a ban on the public showing of the nazi swastika in quite a few European countries, including Germany, France, Italy, etc... (even here in Romania it has been declared a forbiden symbol) mainly because of the suffering of people from those countries while under the boot of the Germans.

As I said on other posts this forum is apolitical, but, why people would want to go back to wearing decorations, won while serving and aiding their past Nazi masters (who were defeated in WW2) and technically, the occupiers of their homeland is beyond me.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Its not very polite to go back to an earlier post and fill it with extra information, after a reply has been formulated on the original post :

Dear Kevin in Deva,

Did you ever see soviet veterans wearing their awards that have been de-sovietified? I never did.

pluribus,

At the end of the day you are not going to find to much sympathy for people who want to wear nazi medals and decorations,

especially from the people who suffered under and lost so much because of the lunatic Adolf hitler and his mad schemes to dominate Europe.

While we do feel sympathy for any people who have suffered under one regime or another, there was nothing that the west could have done about it, we niether had the resources, or the man-power to take on the soviets.

All that is in the past, its documented history, and its time to move on, put it behind you and get on with your lives, crying about what happened in the old days will achieve nothing.

Coming from different sides of the Old Iron Curtain as definately shaped our ideas on what is right or wrong.

Kevin in Deva.

[pluribus]

Thank you.

It is not my purpose to ask some sympathy.Our veterans who fight on the German side do not need abroad sympathy- they need sympathy of their own nation and they finally have it fair and square after the 40 years tribulation.

pluribus

Edited April 27, 2007 by pluribus

[Kev in Deva]

So are you saying the Estonian people are happy to see their veterans wearing Nazi decorations

Kevin in Deva

[pluribus]

So are you saying the Estonian people are happy to see their veterans wearing Nazi decorations

Kevin in Deva

Estonians see them wearing bravery awards which they were awarded for the fight against Soviet occupation.

I can`t see any relation between Iron Cross and nazism. Also we have no problems with veterans wearing the Red Star orders. By the way, many of Estonians were mobilized to the Red Army.

Personally as a collector I like Red Star very much and I have large collection of ORS and many other soviet awards and items.

pluribus

[Kev in Deva]

Estonians see them wearing bravery awards which they were awarded for the fight against Soviet occupation.

I can`t see any relation between Iron Cross and nazism. Also we have no problems with veterans wearing the Red Star orders. By the way, many of Estonians were mobilized to the Red Army.

Personally as a collector I like Red Star very much and I have large collection of ORS and many other soviet awards and items.

pluribus

Well it is a quite obvious relationship, seeing that soldiers of Estonia and Latvia were not awarded Iron Crosses from 1813, 1914, and the swastika on the front might give it away that its a NAZI award, as well as any other NAZI award the veterans are sporting.

It would be far better if the Estonians awarded their spldiers a local award, but in most armys when their has been a change to the staus quo get rid of the preceeding awards from foreign countries, (especially when the foreign power is a loser in the war) andreplace them with more acceptable awards.

The only people who would want to sport such pieces are supporters of the Nazi and the moronic neo-nazi racists of today.

Kevin in Deva.

[pluribus]

Well it is a quite obvious relationship, seeing that soldiers of Estonia and Latvia were not awarded Iron Crosses from 1813, 1914, and the swastika on the front might give it away that its a NAZI award, as well as any other NAZI award the veterans are sporting.

It would be far better if the Estonians awarded their spldiers a local award, but in most armys when their has been a change to the staus quo get rid of the preceeding awards from foreign countries, (especially when the foreign power is a loser in the war) andreplace them with more acceptable awards.

The only people who would want to sport such pieces are supporters of the Nazi and the moronic neo-nazi racists of today.

Kevin in Deva.

Iron Cross with swastika is simply Iron Cross of 1939-1945 which was awarded mostly for the bravery. You can`t change the history scratching off or baning swastikas on the awards.

Anyway, you have your point of view and I have mine.

If you have even a small interest to why it is like it is in Estonia, please read the links I gave above.

Best,

pluribus

[Tony J]

Well it is a quite obvious relationship, seeing that soldiers of Estonia and Latvia were not awarded Iron Crosses from 1813, 1914, and the swastika on the front might give it away that its a NAZI award, as well as any other NAZI award the veterans are sporting.

It would be far better if the Estonians awarded their spldiers a local award, but in most armys when their has been a change to the staus quo get rid of the preceeding awards from foreign countries, (especially when the foreign power is a loser in the war) andreplace them with more acceptable awards.

The only people who would want to sport such pieces are supporters of the Nazi and the moronic neo-nazi racists of today.

Kevin in Deva.

Kevin,

While I agree with your right to say what you do, you are a bit mistaken about some of what you said. With all due respect, of course.

Soldiers from the Baltic region who fought on both the German and Russian sides in the 1914-1918 War were often awarded decorations by the armies they were in. I have seen pictures of independent era Baltic soldiers wearing 1914 EKs won while in the German service as well as various Imperial Russian awards by those in service of the Czar. Both the German and Russian Empires were losers in WWI. Yet the bravery decorations continued to be worn with honor by the recipients. Combat and bravery decorations transcend politics and are a reflection of a time at war. A brave soldier is a brave soldier regardless which army he served in. We should respect that without undo cynicism.

Should the criteria of wearing bravery or combat decorations be governed by who was the winner and who was the loser? In that case no soviet awards showing the hammer and sickle show be allowed to be worn. Allies or not. After all the soviet union collapsed from internal rot and in effect lost the cold war with the west. Besides the soviet regime also was guilty of mass murder and other many such unpleasantries in their own country and those that it had brutally occupied. Excecutions, deportations, imprisonments and exile in the territories as just some of the harshness of the communist regime.

Regarding the 'acceptance' of soviet domination in occupied countries. Please don't confuse the 'official' propaganda of how 'many' people in occupied countries 'welcomed' the soviets as liberators. That is blatant nonsense. While some of the populations may have welcomed occupation the majorities dis not. The facts prove that to be a propoganda lie.

Just ask yourself this. Why have all the previously independent nations, who forcably incorporated into the soviet union, chose independence and sovereignty at the end of the soviet era instead of trying to remain part of that rotten oppressive system?

As was said above their are always opposing sides to any friendly debate. Taking one side over the other does not necessarily make one a nazi or a communist sympathizer.

All the best.

Tony.

[Kev in Deva]

Tony

you do make some valid points.

But, why would people want to wear a decoration with a symbol that is recognised as being from one of the most depraved racialy, moraly offensive on the planet.?

Surving members of the Eastern peoples chose to wear decorations from service in WW1 either from Imperial Germany or Tsarit Russia and I doubt an eyebrow would have been raised.

However, I feel not enough time has passed yet to sooth the old, open wounds, and memories of what was perpetrated upon the people of Europe (inclusing the families of American & Commenwealth soldiers who gave their lives) to free themselves from Fascism.

To many people this symbol (The swastika NOT the Iron Cross) is a sign of hatred, more than the Communist symbol. If there was so much hatred against the Soviets, why then did not the "enslaved peoples" of the East rise up en-mass before the disintegration of the C.C.C.P.

To my mind just because you have been under the heel of the Soviets, is no excuse to flaunt one of the most hated symbols in the Western World, do they not realise that it will cause an offense to other people.

Or, is their idea of Democracy that of "I can do as I like" if so, then they are confusing the word Anarchy with Democracy.

Kevin in Deva

PS: pluribus I looked at the links, and can make no connection between the people mentioned and those who choose to wear a NAZI decoration with pride today, unless any of them were ex-nazi collaberators with an undying hatred for the soviets.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[pluribus]

Kev in Deva,

Sorry but my English is not so good to explain all the half-tones between black and white. You are not a youngster ( like myself) and it`s not my intent to change your faith.

But one must remember we are all human beings and please don`t be so determined in the topic which is obviously too inpenetrable for you. ( I mean history of Baltics).

pluribus

[Tony J]

However, I feel not enough time has passed yet to sooth the old, open wounds, and memories of what was perpetrated upon the people of Europe (inclusing the families of American & Commenwealth soldiers who gave their lives) to free themselves from Fascism.

If there was so much hatred against the Soviets, why then did not the "enslaved peoples" of the East rise up en-mass before the disintegration of the C.C.C.P.

To my mind just because you have been under the heel of the Soviets, is no excuse to flaunt one of the most hated symbols in the Western World, do they not realise that it will cause an offense to other people.

Or, is their idea of Democracy that of "I can do as I like" if so, then they are confusing the word Anarchy with Democracy.

Kevin,

You may be right about not enough time has past to heal the wounds. I guess when the last survivor of that tragic era passes, only then will the sting be mitigated to the actual participants.

You really need to read some history my friend. There were several uprisings by the "enslaved peoples' that were brutally crushed by soviet communist forces. If my memory serves me right there was a worker's revolt in East Germany early on, The Hungarian uprising in 1956, incidents in Poland shipyards just to name a few. There were ocassional revbolts in the Gulag camp system. The reason is not that the 'enslaved peoples' did not rise up, it was that the sheer crushing weight of numbers were against these unfortunates. The soviet union was large and the Baltics were small. Pure mathematics.

We should also not forget the Brothers of the Forest in the Baltics that waged an active partisan war against soviet occupation well into the 1950s with the last Brothers being killed or choosing suicide instead of being captured in the early 1980's. This was a brutal silent war that the soviets conducted against native peoples who did not wish to be enslaved by soviet occupation in their own country.

Let's not forget that the swastika is an ancient symbol that was perverted by the nazis. Before the war the swastika was asymbol of scounting, good luck and served a a religious symbol. The hammer and sickle ihas no previous good history but instead is very offensive to those that suffered under it's yoke and the many tens of millions that died under that cursed symbol. In sheer numbers many, many times more than under the swastika. Please don't think that I'm condining the actions of either side. I am not. Evil is evil whether it is brown or red.

As for flaunting the most hated symbol in the world, fascism is on the rise in Russia. How would you explain that?

Lastly, Democracy is having the ablility to do as you like. With responsibility for ones actions of course. That is one of the benefits of a true democracy. Freedom of choice and action. On the other hand, in a democracy one has the choice to not partake in any actions that they are morally opposed to. Unfortunately people in many countries with a history of strong central rule have a hard time adjusting to this type of personal freedom. Remember that Democracy is positive and constructive while anarchy is negative and destructive. There is no comparision.

All the best,

Tony