Order of the Sacred Treasure

[Igor Ostapenko]

44x44 mm - 5th class ?

[JapanX]

Hi Igor,

I think its five class and its after ww II five class (I think it was made in the last quarter of the last century - around 1975-1995).

Usual diameter for 5 class 46x46 mm but later specimens may be a little smaller

Cheers,

Nick

Edited September 26, 2011 by JapanX

[Igor Ostapenko]

Hi Nick ,

Thank you !!!

[Paul L Murphy]

Igor,

This is later than Nick indicated since the lack of rivets on the reverse is the key factor in dating it. It is from the late 90s or more recent.

Regards,

Paul

[Dieter3]

Here's what I believe - the lack of screws I believe is a very late war feature, but also carried into later production when it was resumed. The only reason I say this is because of a few specimens I have observed at auction in Japan that included documents, dated Showa 19 (1944). My theory is that when production was resumed this construction was still used for a little while and then the screws were adopted soon thereafter. Later specimens that included documents at auction show these screws not to mention - current Sacred Treasure uses these screws in construction, so I don't think it could be recent unless they flip-flopped on construction techniques, which doesn't make sense.

I believe it went: Rivets -> Plain -> Screws

No??

[JapanX]

Here's what I believe - the lack of screws I believe is a very late war feature, but also carried into later production when it was resumed. The only reason I say this is because of a few specimens I have observed at auction in Japan that included documents, dated Showa 19 (1944). My theory is that when production was resumed this construction was still used for a little while and then the screws were adopted soon thereafter. Later specimens that included documents at auction show these screws not to mention - current Sacred Treasure uses these screws in construction, so I don't think it could be recent unless they flip-flopped on construction techniques, which doesn't make sense.

I believe it went: Rivets -> Plain -> Screws

No??

Yes. I think that two screws on reverse belong to 1995-2003 time period - direct predecessor of modern type (technologies are almost identical). No doubt about it (in my mind ). I will post good photos tommorow.

Plain reverse direct predecessor of two screws. I can't define its time borders accurately. But this is not penultimate type.

But it is exact not post-war speciments (again in my mind ). I called them glue-type (it really holds everything together ). Documented groups could easely be created (let me put it this way) artificially. :(

[JapanX]

Let me explain in every detail why I allow myself to attribute Igor 5^th class to specific time period (to be exact circa 1975-1995). I think that after WW II there were four different variations (or types) of sacred treasure order. Here they are in chronological order on an example of 5^th class.

[JapanX]

Variation A (4 rivets)

[JapanX]

Variation B (“glue”)

[JapanX]

Variation C (“two screws”)

[JapanX]

Variation D (“modern two screws”)

[JapanX]

When exactly Variation B has replaced Variation A?

I don’t know that for sure (Osaka Mint people know this for sure). But Variation B was definitely created only in the second half of the last century. And there are too many pieces of Variation B in the market. “Too many” if this type was manufactured only during 90s (or even 80s).

And then there is Variation C.

I think that Variation C is immediate relative to Variation D.

Some photos to support my point of view.

[JapanX]

Obverses

[JapanX]

Reverses

[JapanX]

And Variation C is rather numerous class (of course not as numerous as A and B)! I think it took at least a couple of years of manufacturing (or even much more time!) to make it that numerous. And that’s why I think that Variation B doesn’t belong to the late 90s or early 00s. Variation C simply doesn’t allow it.

Edited September 28, 2011 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Of course the ultimate authority in our discussion

a) genuine document on every variation by every year inside time period under study

or

b) information from Osaka Mint (I am seriously playing with idea to write them a letter )

Cheers,

Nick

Edited September 28, 2011 by JapanX

[JapanX]

P.S. Igor probably will think: “My gosh, what is wrong with this guy? I only asked if this piece belong to 5^th class or not.”

Sorry mate. :D

Edited September 28, 2011 by JapanX

[Igor Ostapenko]

It's OK !

THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I need all information before selling , this order from lot of awards and I not Japany awards collector ...

Edited September 28, 2011 by Igor Ostapenko

[Dieter3]

Whenever in doubt, simply state that in any transaction! :)

[JapanX]

Whenever in doubt, simply state that in any transaction!

So what do with think about my classification attempt Dieter?

Especially about dating variation C.

You are lucky to have D in your collection!

Edited September 28, 2011 by JapanX

[Dieter3]

I agree with your classifications and you are right - the only way to be sure on these 100% would be to get infer from the Osaka Mint (SOMEBODY must know something!!) or to have the actual medals with real documents as awarded to individuals with no tampering! This is a challenge of course. Your Variation D though is easy - we know when these medals began production, so we know when Variation C ended. Of this we can be sure, but only this for now.

But let's not forget the other parts of the medal - look at the hooks and catches - these change too and seem to evolve in the Sacred Treasure and the Rising Sun Orders. Variation B needs to be examined closely for these features and checked against others for distinct similarities or differences. ALSO - I forgot about this - Variation C Sacred Treasures have maker codes on the suspension ball - these were later moved to the back of the paulownia suspension on D - so I believe we know C is more modern buy this as well.

I do not have a variant B, so I don't know if they have similar codes.....???

[JapanX]

But let's not forget the other parts of the medal - look at the hooks and catches - these change too and seem to evolve in the Sacred Treasure and the Rising Sun Orders.

Very unreliable features! And I don`t think that they substantially evolved during this period (1960-1990).

... I forgot about this - Variation C Sacred Treasures have maker codes on the suspension ball - these were later moved to the back of the paulownia suspension on D - so I believe we know C is more modern buy this as well.

You are absolutely right. Two-letter and two-letter+digit codes. They could be found only on C or D.

I do not have a variant B, so I don't know if they have similar codes.....???

No, they haven`t. At least I`ve never seen them on Variation B (even mint mark M is missing and this is very strange!).

Regards,

Nick

[Dieter3]

Ah!! But you will see differences in the hooks and catches on later awards that never occurred on earlier ones unless they were replacements - look at the styling of the C and D pieces. They are different!

I think the "M" was used for a certain period when several makers made medals, then the scandal occurred, then the "M" became somewhat unnecessary since all medals would be made by Osaka. Does that seem possible?

[JapanX]

Ah!! But you will see differences in the hooks and catches on later awards that never occurred on earlier ones unless they were replacements - look at the styling of the C and D pieces. They are different!

In my post I was talking about 1960-1990 period

I think the "M" was used for a certain period when several makers made medals, then the scandal occurred, then the "M" became somewhat unnecessary since all medals would be made by Osaka. Does that seem possible?

Sorry, but I desagree. I think that

First time M appears (on orders) only in 1929. Then it is in use for the next 40 years (another scenario - for the next 16 years).

Current mint marks were reincarnated only for pure technical needs (my point of view).

Edited September 29, 2011 by JapanX

[JapanX]

Why 1929?

Here are the first Japan Mint productions of each order recorded in my official Japan Mint histories. (NOTE: These dates are NOT the dates the orders were established.)

Collar of the Supreme Order of the Chrysanthemum: Showa 6 [1931]

Grand Cordon of the Supreme Order of the Chrysanthemum: Showa 8 [1933]

Grand Cordon of the Order of the Paulownia Flowers: Showa 6 [1931]

Order of the Sacred Treasure: Showa 4 [1929]

Order of the Sacred Crown: Showa 5 [1930]

Order of the Golden Kite: Showa 7 [1932]

Order of Culture: Showa 18 [1943]

The Order of the Rising Sun was made by the Japan Mint for the first few years: (Meiji 9- 13 [1876-1880]) and then production halted until Showa 7 [1932].

So we have a lot of years when no Orders were being made at the Japan Mint.

(More detailed and interesting info like this is forthcoming in my fifth ebook on Japanese medals! Sorry to plug my wares--please delete this part if inappropriate.)

Rich

Edited September 29, 2011 by JapanX