help with Officer and Regiment

[joerookery]

This is a picture of an officer's chest from the Trawnik collection. Can this individual will be found?

Inside the box was found an original 153rd officers helmet with a Landwehr cross. I'm still trying to determine what kind of helmet people of this rank were entitled to -- especially as they shifted -- but I cannot find Landwehr infantry Regiment 153. Am I being thick? That is LIR isn't it?

[KIR]

Hi,

nice box! I read also Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 153.

The LIR153 was formed (around 1917) from the: Landwehr-Ersatz-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 2

Best regards,

Jens

[Guest Rick Research]

An Offizier-Stellvertreter was not actually an officer. He would probably have gotten a retirement bump out as a charakterisiert Leutnant a.D., but theoretically most were career or ex-career NCOs who would have reverted to their "permanent" non-commissioned status after The Final Victory. They wore officers accoutrements (cap cockade and side arm knot which would have been officer-type anyway as senior NCOs) and their own distinctive shoulder straps, but status would have been like "Special Sergeant Major" had any such rank existed. They were below Feldwebelleutnants, who as wearers of Leutnant shoulder boards with NCOs collar insignia came out more what we'd call Warrant Officers.

If an Offizier-Stellvertreter failed to meet pensionable minimum years (18, with 1914-18 as 10) or a full year at the front in this rank, he wouldn't have been discharged as a Leutnant in 1920 and would have been demobilized still in this rank.

[joerookery]

Thank you Rick! If anyone could find this guy it would've been you. I know nothing about individual also research maybe I should learn -- I assume he cannot be located because he is neither active nor commissioned ?

In the world of helmets this rank has caused a lot of questions. Portepee Unteroffiziere wear a cockade on the helmet that is similar to an officer's cockade but is smaller and a bit different. What about Stellv. ? It seems that they wore pure officer helmets. But assuming they started at an enlisted rank, they could easily have an issue helmet. Did they upgraded it? Part way? I'm sure there is no rule that is one-size-fits-all. These guys are clearly neither fish nor fowl. Several written sources such as the pay tables grouped them with officers. But they aren't real officers... nothing is ever easy. Thanks again!

[Glenn J]

Joe,

the Offizier-Stellvertreter was not entitled by regulations to wear an officers' pattern helmet. However according to Kraus that did not entirely stop the practice! Offizier-Stellvertreter were also cautioned against the wearing of the officer pattern caps, Paletot, cloak and Litewka etc.

As a SNCO the Offizier-Stellvertreter was entitled to the issue helmet with NCOs cockades.

The Offizier-Stellvertreter was still classified in the rank group of Unteroffizier mit Portepee whereas the Feldwebelleutant was classified as a junior officer.

Regards

Glenn

[joerookery]

the Offizier-Stellvertreter was not entitled by regulations to wear an officers' pattern helmet.

Glenn

Thank you so much. What regulation is that? I have the AKO on this but not a regulation do you have such an animal? I have not seen anything black-and-white that lumps this guy one way or the other -- where is it? I need to look at Kraus.

Thanks again.

VR/Joe

[Guest Rick Research]

On the other hand, if he did indeed demobilize as Leutnant aD or Leutnant dL aD, he would have been entitled to wear the complete uniform of that rank, so an officer's helmet (1920+) is not unlikely.

[Glenn J]

Joe,

the Bekleidungsordnung of 1896 (Clothing regulations) clearly states that the Offizier-Stellvertreter wears the uniform and equipment of the Vizefeldwebel. They were authorized to wear the officer pattern sword slung on an internal belt as for commissioned officers and the officers' pattern pack for dismounted branches.

See also Kraus page 260.

Regards

Glenn

[Glenn J]

Joe,

as a further aside, certainly at the beginning of the war the majority of Offizier-Stellvertreter were appointed from the Vizefeldwebel der Reserve (i.e former one year volunteers) and it is safe to assume that these guys would have their own private purchase helmets.

Regards

Glenn

[joerookery]

Glenn

Thank you as usual for your reasoned response. It seems as though there was great confusion about this rank in 1914. as it has never been used since creation It was the subject of two AKOs in 1914 alone. I really like Kraus. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of standardization after the start of the war for this rank. There are several different types of private purchase helmets. It is not clear to me if one-year volunteers were issued helmets or not in August 1914. I know what the prewar regulations dictated but picture evidence seems to indicate that was not always the case. then there are the cases of those issued helmets with a personal tag from a one-year volunteer. the example of Mr. Weber that Chris has translated throws more fuel on the fire making him sound like the officer. The existence of the AKO tells me that many Germans were not sure exactly what these animals were. So I don't know how well a 20-year-old uniform order was accepted by all.

[Thomas]

Joe, the Offizier-Stellvertreter was not entitled by regulations to wear an officers' pattern helmet. However according to Kraus that did not entirely stop the practice! Offizier-Stellvertreter were also cautioned against the wearing of the officer pattern caps, Paletot, cloak and Litewka etc.As a SNCO the Offizier-Stellvertreter was entitled to the issue helmet with NCOs cockades. The Offizier-Stellvertreter was still classified in the rank group of Unteroffizier mit Portepee whereas the Feldwebelleutant was classified as a junior officer. Regards Glenn

This is also what the charts say on kaisers bunker. Joe have you looked at the chart on helmet classifications? He has an easy to read chart that shows the Offizier-Stellvertreter wore the issue helmet. Here it is http://www.kaisersbunker.com/hp/class.htm Tom

[joerookery]

Thank you Thomas! Tony and I have debated this issue on pickelhaubes.com and I am not convinced it is either fish or fowl. We have different views on this and I'm not sure which one is right. There seems to be a series of references that lump this rank in the officer world. However, they're not supposed to be I don't think -- I side with Rick here. The problem is that there were none of these guys before 1914. They were authorized and envisioned but never tested. If you had an issue helmet as a Vizefeldwebel would you upgraded it? Why are there examples of full officer ones? Were there some in between? Tony says absolutely not but I am not so sure. There seems to have been a lot of confusion at least in my mind when this rank finally appeared. An entire AKO revolving around the disciplinary authority attributed to the rank. The idea Rick had of veterans helmets I think is very interesting -- my problem is I'm always looking for an easy box when they don't always exist! Thank you again Thomas!

[Thomas]

"Why are there examples of full officer ones? Were there some in between? Tony says absolutely not but I am not so sure. "

Sorry, did not know that you knew him, but it makes sense that you do. On his chart, in line 3 he says that Vizefeldwebel could wear an issue helmet with the Unteroffizier mit Portepee Kokarden and on line 4 they could also wear a private purchse one, which is what you are talking about. So if I read it, in part, he is agreeing with you? But he says they could wear either. I guess it all depends on how much spare cash the guy had. Tom

Edited August 13, 2008 by Thomas

[joerookery]

Actually what Tony is talking about is right online about the Vizefeldwebel. The crux of the debate is did this guy -- the Vizefeldwebel -- upgrade his issued helmet? If indeed the individual did-- then you could possibly have an issue helmet with some private purchase parts on it. Sort of a privately upgraded issued helmet. I think it's possible others do not as issued helmets were supposed to be government property. I think the jury is still out. It just keeps everything interesting!