Uncategorised DKiS award document

[MasterBo]

Would like to share it with you.

Edited October 28, 2008 by MasterBo

[Arsn]

:love:

[Guest Rick Research]

Wherever you got it, send it back immediately for a refund.

I cannot address the award itself, but the document is a fantasy fraud.

1) there never was a "Major Werner Vebel"

October 1937 below-- but same result January 1939, May 1940, May 1942, or May 1944:

2) so naturally there was never any such award of a DKiS (all recipients listed by the Association of German Cross Recipients in the 1980s)

3) a line infantry regiment battalion staff officer would not have qualified for such an award-- not the right type recipient

4) No German would have entered the unit as shown "110.Inf.Rgt.Stab.II." That is not how unit designations were written.

5) Inf Rgt 110 had Ceased To Be before the date shown.

Document is a Frankenstein fantasy fraud. :(

[Naxos]

Rick is right - this document is a forgery.

Offered for $1,850 by:

http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/088p1.html

http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/paper%20&a...20documents.htm

Edited October 31, 2008 by Naxos

[Guest Rick Research]

:speechless1:

I can never emphasize enough the absolute NECESSITY of a good home reference library. No money on such books is ever wasted-- and they save making horrible mistakes like this.

[MasterBo]

I can never emphasize enough the absolute NECESSITY of a good home reference library. No money on such books is ever wasted-- and they save making horrible mistakes like this.

Hello, Rick, thank you very much for the help, i still hope (want to beleave) that the document is real. Waiting on opinion from few more ppeople. The seller is willing to refund any time. I am not an expert on documents, but have some guest ions, if some one would fraud it, why wouldn?t they use a name which is on the list? Same with the regiment designation.

Best regards, and thanks again, Paul.

[Bernhard H.Holst]

Hello, Rick, thank you very much for the help, i still hope (want to beleave) that the document is real. Waiting on opinion from few more ppeople. The seller is willing to refund any time. I am not an expert on documents, but have some guest ions, if some one would fraud it, why wouldn?t they use a name which is on the list? Same with the regiment designation.

Best regards, and thanks again, Paul.

Hello Paul.

I am an agreement with the other respondents as to the absolute faked document pictured. is is a crude attempt to peddle a document which is a rarity. The clues are just overwhelming that it is an absolute fraud. Lately two have appeared in Europe which seem genuine and asking prices are between 3,500 and 3,900 Euro. Also blank documents for the award of the D.K.i.S.have been available over time which has made it easier for fraudsters to ply their " trade".

Bernhard H. Holst

[MasterBo]

Hello, everyone, thank you very much again for your help. Here is another document to your attention and the same question of its originallity.

Oberst Paul Bassewitz.

Best regards, Paul.

Edited October 31, 2008 by MasterBo

[Guest Rick Research]

Just as bad, but to return first to your question

"if some one would fraud it, why wouldn?t they use a name which is on the list? Same with the regiment designation."

Because there is no need to be clever if the buyer does not have the reference sources. Fakers, like most criminals, are lazy AND stupid and don't put any effort into their Get Rich Quick schemes. They don't need to FOOL you if you do not have the reference sources right there at home that would save you from getting screwed over by them. They are COUNTING on people not having the references to save themselves-- because you can NOT get fooled if you DO have the right sources.

These documents, blank, were being sold for about $10 10 years ago, with the small EK2 blanks about $3-- some of THOSE came pre-stamped with fantasy SS rubber stamps for filling in by the buyer.

Here you have a second example from the same source-- apparently the periods typed after each line are a "trademark" of this particular clown.

Once again

There never was any Oberst Paul Bassewitz.

While at least this time the faker has got the battalion in front of the regiment, it is still not entered CORRECTLY-- and we'll just leave it at that rather than becoming a tutorial for fakers since it appears there is a ready supply of these on hand and the same person is busily churning them out en masse.

Rank and unit are again instant tip offs-- an OBERST would not have been on the staff of a BATTALION within an infantry REGIMENT, nor would a combatant infantry officer in a front line combat unit have been the sort of person who would ever have received a German Cross in SILVER-- given to staff officers/behind the lines/technical support types.

I have been collecting for over 40 years. In all that time, and with all the global connections I have, I have seen exactly ONE original German Cross in Silver award document-- and that was Polizei-Generaloberst Kurt Daluege's.

Anybody who miraculously happens to have one in stock at any given time is....

"Waiting on opinion from few more ppeople."

I don't know who ELSE you are relying on, but a simple task from me to you to them: FIND somebody in period sources (like those I have shown above) who...

never existed.

I didn't even need to go look at the official recipients' organization register of names: the ranks and units and the way they were typed was enough to start alarm bells flashing.

"That document LOOKS OK to me..." is NOT the same as 30 years of fanatical German officer biographical research on specific living, breathing people:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=688

Paper measurements, tone of paper etc etc etc are nitpicking details that can't get around the fact that when the person didn't exist, the whole thing is a fraud. :ninja:

[MasterBo]

Hello, Rick. Thank you once again. In no way i underestimate your knowlege or expertize and if i did sond like that, i didnt mean it.

Its just i hoped so much that the document was real.

If any one knows where the one is for sale, please let me know.

All the best to all of us.

[Guest Rick Research]

I'm not smart, I just have a good library. It helps that I'm as old as dirt, so I got reference books as they came out. Horst Scheibert was himself a winner of the DKiG as a Panzer Oberleutnant and published these two volumes (the Army-only DKiGs a year earlier) for the Ordensgemeinschaft of German Cross winners:

These should still be available from used militaria books dealers. Saves all kinds of grief up front to have at home.

We collectors--of anything-- have to stick together! :cheers:

[Simon Orchard]

Here's another bad DKiS doc that was until recently for sale at Regimentals in the UK, it seems to be gone now and i can only hope no one was suckered into buying it.

Whilst Reinhold Klebe was a real person and did even hold a German Cross, it was gold and not silver.

[Guest Rick Research]

:beer: And again: note the FOOLISH attribution to a supposed frontline command combatant officer.

Silver awards were for TECHNICAL personnel (tank repair and recovery etc) or far removed upper echelon never-heard-guns-fired command staff types.

[Bear]

I found these that are up for auction. Good/Bad I don't collect this stuff but thought it might help someone else to see some other examples.

thanks,

barry

[Bear]

doc2

[Bear]

doc3

[Guest Rick Research]

Can't speak to the Spanish Cross since there are no lists for those--although am not at ALL happy with the typing, lack of spacing between day and month and that stupid period after the year which seems a "trademark" of Yon Churner Of Fakes.

The two German Cross documents are both crap again.

Yeesh. Doesn't ANYBODY have the Fundamental Basic Reference Books?

Not knowing where these come from-- but assuming not off eBay from the scans--

anyone with even a PRETENSE of being a quote unquote Professional Dealer SHOULD have the FBRBs

or have the integrity to seek some other profession like grave-robbing or international baby organ trafficking more suited to their skills. It is inexcusable in 2008 to be asking REAL MONEY for items as egregiously, shamefully, obviously g-a-r-b-a-g-e and have any SHRED of a claim to be reputable.

I don't even collect these wretched things, but I've got the reference library to be able to instantly dismiss them.

Yeesh.

[Staff Sgt Jock MacSplock]

Here's another bad DKiS doc that was until recently for sale at Regimentals in the UK, it seems to be gone now and i can only hope no one was suckered into buying it.

.... who state on their website:

Collecting militaria is not about the technical aspect of an item; it is about the feel, the history, even the smell. Because of these events we warn all our website viewers to make their own judgements on items when they actually receive them or view them and not to be influenced by comments made ostensibly by groups of Internet forum contributors who have very little or no experience.

Masterbo - there's hope yet.

[Simon Orchard]

Rick's quite right, all 3 are rubbish. The DKiG also has that god awful generic OKW fake stamp that says RUN louder than any words.

As for Regimentals advice, whilst i agree that opinions that go along the lines of 'bad IMO' or 'i wouldn't want it in my collection' offer nothing. Opinions backed up by reasons and evidence are valid no matter who puts them forward or by what medium. The feel and smell of an award document can't mask the crap written on it.

[nesredep]

Hello!

Interesting and informative tread,thanks.

All the best

Nesredep