EK 1939 2 PLace Medal Bar (39EK2 & Italian WMC)

[Gary B]

Hi,

Here is a combination you don't see often, well it is a first for me. Although the Italian WMC is mounted on an incorrect ribbon (should be blue with 2 white vertical stripes) the medal bar shows no sign of tampering. The ribbon looks like a LS ribbon and was probably used since the tailor did jnot have correct ribbon. I have seen this done on other foriegn awards I have, like the Order of Medi. Small details like the horizontal piece of ribbon over the mounting rings to hide them are a nice detial. Additionally, the mouting ring on the Italian WMC is the correct large angular type (can be felt beneath the ribbon) which gives further support that this was not a medal added to a bar that the LS award had fallen off of.

Gary B

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gary B

One aspect of this combo which is strange (to my mind) is the fact that the Italian Cross of War / Croce Di Guerra is the World War 1 type with the intials V.E. III for King Vittorio Emanulle III as opposed to the WW2 model with the I.R. (Italian Republic) cypher.

Very early WW1 issues of this cross were in fact issued with a 37mm wide ribbon consisting of eleven vertical alternating blue-purple and white stripes, this was later replaced after Decree 10 March, 1918 stated: a ribbon in rich blue with 5mm white stripes inset 8mm from each border (no indication is given for the change!)

The latter ribbon was also retained for crosses issued in WW2.

As Italy and Germany were on opposing sides in WW1, would an Italian medal from this period be found on a medal bar for WW2?

If the Nazi EK II was awarded to an Italian would it be worn in first place??

Also I believe the Italian War Merit Cross were defined by a Sword Insignia on the ribbon:

either in Silver Bullion or later pressed metal.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited May 7, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Gary B]

Hi Kevin,

Thnkas for the comment. This is indeed interesting information. I was unaware of the WWI version of this award. What would the award be if it does not have the sword device (Cross of War)? Was that just for participating in the war?

The medal bar does not have any indication of tampering, as if the Italian medal was added later to replace a missing medal. It is very tight construction, yet not "new". I will look at it more closely.

Gary B

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Kevin,

What would the award be if it does not have the sword device (Cross of War)? Was that just for participating in the war?

Gary B

Hallo Gary

Potted History of the Italian Cross of War:

Acting on the recommendations of his Ministers for the Army, Navy and Colonies, King Vittorio Emanuele III established the Croce di Guerra by Royal Decree No: 204 of 19th January, 1918.

This was designated a decoration to be granted at state exspense, to those who had conducted themselves ". . . . in a manner worthy of public recognition."

All awards were made in the name of the King by senior officers (Commanders-in-Chief, Army and Corps commanders and their Naval counterparts), and were accompanied by a brevet or award certificate.

Like the corresponding Belgian and French Croix de Guerre, the Italian Cross of War could be awarded on several grounds.

It was for example: Granted to servicemen who had spent at least one year in Front Line duty or otherwise engaged with enemy forces, or who were wounded in combat and subsequently granted a decoration.

In addition, it was to be conferred on individuals who had participated with gallentry in significant actions, and had been cited for bravery but not awarded a decoration.

Those promoted for exceptionally meritorious service in the field under combat conditions were also to receive this decoration.

Article 7 of the enabling Decree made provision for retro-active awards.

It has not been acertained whether the decoraion was granted posthumously as well.

Finally, provision was made for multiple awards, individuals could be granted up to three Crosses, the aditional awards being designated by 6mm bronze Royal Crowns mounted on the ribbon.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So far I have no information stating it was granted to foreigners.

With regards your spange, it has to be asked: Why would a German sport the Italian award and in particular why this WW1 award??

After the Italian Forces went over to the Allied side, Hitler gave an order that all Italian awards and ribbons were to be removed immedietely from German uniforms, this was, I believe rigidley enforced.

Kevin in Deva

Ps I attach a picture of a typical WW1 Group showing swords on the ribbon of the Cross of War.

[Gary B]

Kevin,

Thanks for the info. Do you have a picture of the WWII version with the Italian republic cypher?

Thanks.

Gary B

[Kev in Deva]

Kevin,

Thanks for the info. Do you have a picture of the WWII version with the Italian republic cypher?

Thanks.

Gary B

Hallo Gary,

these two Crosses are in my collection, WW1 on the left, WW2 on the right.

Front.

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Rear.

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Interstingly under the I. R. can be seen the "ghost" of I I I, I believe some of the WW1 tooling was adapted to produce the I. R. version.

The ghost:

Also there is a variation in the tops of the crosses, where the ribbon ring is mounted.

Kevin in Deva

Edited May 8, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

There is also variations between the shape of the oak leaves and the sword tips, the I. R. Sword tip being more rounded.

Kevin in Deva

[Gary B]

Thanks, Kev. I will have to ponder this piece. As I have mentioned it is of proper construction but I have no answer as to how/why the combinations of awards. A member of another forum wrote me and told me that "This cross is not the merit cross, it?s the valore cross 1943 type with blue ribbon. The valore cross is the "Italian EK2"."

Do you know anything about what he speaks of?

Gary B

There is also variations between the shape of the oak leaves and the sword tips, the I. R. Sword tip being more rounded.

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Thanks, Kev. I will have to ponder this piece. As I have mentioned it is of proper construction but I have no answer as to how/why the combinations of awards. A member of another forum wrote me and told me that "This cross is not the merit cross, it?s the valore cross 1943 type with blue ribbon. The valore cross is the "Italian EK2"."

Do you know anything about what he speaks of?

Gary B

Hallo Gary

which cross are you refering to here:

A member of another forum wrote me and told me that "This cross is not the merit cross, it?s the valore cross 1943 type with blue ribbon. The valore cross is the "Italian EK2"."

The cross you show in your original post?? or the I.R. Version I show in my posts??

The cross you have on the spange is for WW1 issue.

The only other type I have seen is this: and thats for Spanish troops who went to Spain to help Franco in the civil war, here it is shown on the incorrect ribbon.

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

I believe this is the Italian Valor Cross of WW2.

And still the question remains is it possible for a German to get this Italian award, or even the WW1 or WW2 version of the Cross of War??

Gets confusing dosent it

Kevin in Deva

Edited May 15, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gary,

I took the trouble to crop the cross in your post and it has the words "VALORE MILITARE" Under V.E. III

a case of not seeing the wood for the trees

So to my mind that makes it a WW1 Cross of Valour, and again the question still remains how did it get teamed up with a WW2 Iron Cross??

Kevin in Deva

[Gary B]

Hi Kev,

Thanks for the response. I was referrgin to the cross on my bar. Well I can say thatr Germans did receive foreign awards, mainly from Romania and Blugaria, although I do have a bar with a medal from Morroco on it. So I guess it is possible for a German to have received a valor award from Italy, but it should be the valor cross with the IR cypher as you show. I can only speculate as to why this is not the case on my bar...did the tailor not have a WWII version?

NO answer here?

Gary B

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Gary

just a quick question is the Italian cross in zink?? "kreigsmetal", as the Germans call it??

I cant recall seeing any official Italian medals in this material before

Kevin in Deva.

[Ulsterman]

There are numerous examples of germans receiving italian awards out there.

There are dozens of photos and in the Wehrpass section someone can confirm gallantry awards.

Also, @ 5 years ago detlev sold a bar very similar to this (with docs) of an E-boat Lt.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Ulsterman

we are not disputing the fact that in WW2 Italian awards went to Germans,

what we find intreiging / puzzling is the Italian Cross is a WW1 type, by having V.E. III Cypher.

Kevin in Deva

[Ulsterman]

oops-missed that-hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......