Scowen

Indeed. I've also learned since this thread was originally posted that this piece came in two sizes! Don

It's still there Joe. Provided you are logged in, it should be visible under the "Special Interest Section" towards the bottom of the main forums page. Don

They are just the items that do not fit in my collection & need new homes.... Don

I was wrong Joe, I do still have it. It was in my "throw out" box waiting for me to find it a new home. Not from the Tirol, but as it has been mentioned here I'll post it. Don

I've never seen any sign that there were enamel versions.

Hi Joe, Here is my stickpin, unmarked to the reverse. I also have this large (approx A4) document with the envelope it was issues in.....

I've seen these over the years but have never really been comfortable with them, they look cast to me. Maybe another member who knows more about the HJ can help? Don

Very nice Lance. I have one too. Also un undated one for Heimatwerk Salzburg. I've not been able to find out anything about these pieces yet.... Here is a photo taken at the Salzburg Gauschießen in 1943 showing Gauleiter Dr. Scheel & Kreisleiter Kastner on the Armbrustschießstand.... You may be interested to know that the badge being worn on the lapel of the man standing on the right in the picture is likely to be of this design....

Now that's an old one.... Very nice though....

That's a sweet little pin. First time for me, thanks for posting it. Don

Thank you Joe. Yes I do know of other collectors who specialise in this area to a certain degree. Most are in Austria & are reluctant to help "outsiders" or allow items to leave the country.... Hi Lance, These rectangular, crimped pin plates were used extensively by the manufacturer Alois Klammer from Innsbruck, & also Karl Pichl, also from Innsbruck, it's almost like a finger print. There are some who maintains that linking pin plates to specific manufacturers is not reliable as manufacturers outsourced the attachment process to specialist companies. This may be true, but if you study enamel badges & their manufacturers close enough you can often find that some favoured certain types of attachment. Such as Hoffstätter for instance, who often used small oval pin plates & Klammer who used these crimped ones. Having said that, just because one of these Klammer made pieces does not have this style of pin plate doesn't mean that the badge is bad, it's just that they can very often be found with this style. Don

I've only seen the one, however there may be other examples with different pin set ups etc. I have 3 Prototypes of the 3 year badge. The front of the badge is different to the "standard" 3 year badge, but is the same on all of the 3 prototypes, but all 3 badges have different reverse set ups....

Regarding the Völkermarkt badges. I've only ever seen the KK badges & a quick look at a newspaper clipping I have only refers to the shoot & the number of badges awarded, no mention of the weapons used. In articles from shoots which had both, it is usually mentioned. For anyone who isn't familiar with the badges Joe is asking about, here is a scan of them...

You do see examples that are painted green, I suspect that it was either done by the owners or post war. Most are plain metal colour. If anything I'd say that they may have been gold which has been lost.... I have an example with a green enamel wreath which I believe was a prototype. The Kreismeisters are two piece badges, a gold grade badge simply dropped onto a larger solid backed wreathed bed. With the prototype, it was dopped onto an open wreath. Below is a scan showing the prototype & regular Kreismeister with the gold grade between them.

Thank you Gentlemen. As rare as hens teeth as the saying goes..... Here's one I've never shown anywhere before with an Allgemeines Gauabzeichen in wear. Unfortunately I can't make out which year... Apart from the shoddy soldering which I suspect indicates a replaced pin, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.... It's a Gold with Oakleaves grade, or Kreismeister. All of the Kreisschiessen came in four grades, bronze, silver, gold & the Kreismeister which was gold with oakleaves..... Here is a scan of my set showing all four grades of the badge. Don

I now own that picture 😁 Unfortunately, even blown up the details need to be able to tell from the from whether it was a Poellath or A.G. aren't clear enough. We can see however that it is the Kleinkaliber version rather than the Armeegewehr....

Another nice piece Lance, although not really my area as this is German rather than Austrian. I've seen these with two different makers, Lauer as with yours & D.Fechler, Bernsbach. The latter I suspect are fakes as the enamel leaves much to be desired.... They also come with an added Swastika disc glued to the target, but whether those are period I cannot say.... D

It's fairly unusual, more so on German pieces than Tiroler pieces. I suspect the reason for it on this one that Lance posted is that they were made the year before in preparation for issuing in 1939. The Anschluss happened & either it was too late to change the design, or too expensive.... I remember the one badge ypou mean Joe. Not sure that I still have it though..... Thank you for posting them Lance. All except one of the lapel badges in the bottom row are also Allgemeines Gauabzeichen. The exception is the last one on the right, the Pistole 1944 which is the lapel version of the Landesschiessen badge. Regarding the larger badges, as you know the A.G. & Co pieces are controversial, however I like them.... Otherwise there isn't anything to worry about with any of the pieces that you show here. Don

You have good taste, these are nice little badges. It’s an Allgemeines Gauabzeichen or General Gau badge. They were given out at Kreis level at the area shooting house.

Never a problem Joe. I find this subject just as confusing as it is interesting. I spend years looking for an answer a question that I have, only to have the answer raise further questions 😱

You are most welcome Lance. No, I'm afraid that #26 was not awarded either. 25 & 27 were, but not 26..... I've often wondered how the serial numbered badges were dished out, as the numbers on the unissued badges seems to be quite random (except for the higher numbers which were obviously just "left over" after the event). I've come to the conclusion that maybe they were just in boxes & were probably handed out randomly. Some of the more important people seem to have managed to obtain the same serial number on their badges for each year, but generally it was quite random. Yes Lance, feel free to post what you have & we will take a look at them. Thankfully, this area of Third Reich collecting escaped the mass faking we see in other areas & fakes are fairly scarce. Don

Indeed. A 4 Jahre clasp was issued to be attached to the 3 year Meister. I believe, although to date I have not seen any physical evidence to support it, that clasps for 5, 7 & 8 years were planned. Whether any were made I cannot say as I have never seen any. However they are small & unless one realises what they were for they would be easily overlooked. I think that it is also worth pointing out at this point that 1943 was not the only year that the 3 year badge was issued. Once a shooter had received a dated meister 3 times (not necessarily in three consecutive years) he or she would be entitled to the 3 year Meister. So for instance, a marksman could have won Meisters in 1941 & 1942, but then not qualified for another until 1944, then the 3 year would have been given in 1944. No idea. I suspect that the 3, 6 & 9's were all made at the point when the initial approval was given as they are multi construction. The eagles are made of iron whereas the wreaths are not, so manufacturing would not have been simple. Here is a scan showing the 4 year clasp on the full size & lapel 3 year Gaumeister. As you can imagine, the clasp for the lapel version is tiny.

Hi Lance & welcome to the forum. Some nice pieces you have there, thank you for posting them. You read correctly, all of the dated Meisterschütze badges were originally gold grade. Some unscrupulous dealers repainted them gold, silver or bronze to make them easier to shift. This originally started when the large number of badges that had been in storage were released onto the market post war. As they are made of zinc, most if not all of the finish would have gone from the badges, so if they were repainted in different colours, then they could be sold quicker to collectors who were unaware of how they should be. The 6 year Meister badges were part of the released pieces from the stores. These were never issued as they had been made in preparation for issuing in 1946 (there are also 9 year badges made to be issued in 1949!!!). There's nothing like forward planning..... 1944 badge #2782 was unawarded. 1944 badge #1056 was awarded to Hans Wolf from Innsbruck. 1943 badge #2491 was also unawarded (the highest numbe badge awarded that year was 2380). 1943 badge #553 was awaded to Adolf Kunsek from Innsbruck. The badges awarded to Hans & Adolf were the only Meisters issued to them, either they did not qualify for them in other years or they did not take part in the Landesschiessen for the other years. Hope this is of some interest & I look forward to seeing what else you may have. Don

I think I have an ausweis somewhere.... If I can find it I'll take a look. I do have an RDF pin somewhere as well, quite boring compared to these.

Joe, Sorry, no, nothing official. Although I have noticed that the larger dealers have started to list some of the coloured & 3D pieces with ranks such as the blue version for Kreisverbandsleiter, blue 3D for Kreisamtsleiter & the black for Mitarbeiter der Landesverbandsleitung : Landeswart, Landesamtswart, Landeskassenwart, Landessippenwart etc.... However I don't know whether this is guess work or based on period evidence which I haven't seen.