Chris Boonzaier

Hi, I am not so worried about that, i have some crazy handwriting on docs, the group came to a friend directly from the family and was not expensive at all (coming from the family). The Doc in post 2 is from the same printer as the SB Rohr docs and corresponds in all respecs with the Rohr docs and other ones to this unit. The handwriting may be funny, but believe me, the docs are good. it would be a shame to dismiss then because of a clerk who felt artsy.. I must get a good scan of the signature in doc 2... if that was identified I think the mystery would be solved. Best Chris

There are a number of regiments that had their own Sturm Abteilung... IR 162 as well Im September 1917 wurde eine Sturmabteilung für das Stoßtrupp-Verfahren gebildet. Die Mitglieder jener Abteilung trugen am linken Unterarm ein blaues Band mit dem Lübecker weiß-roten Wappenschild.

Waht is alo very interesting, there are 3 different stamps for the unit!! 2 variations of the 1. Sturm Abteilung one and a Abteilung Wagner one...

Hi, He does some artistic loopy H... same in the H in Heinrich... almost like ScHarfscHützen HeinricH

Hi, will do tonight. In the introduction to the history he says as it was not a traditional regt, noone had bothered to do a history, so he wrote one mainly from the regimental war diaries. Which means the usual little gems of info we like in a unit history are sadly lacking :-(

HI, Maybe more out of confusion? I have had 2 sets where the man was awarded the 1914 EK2 twice! Apparently in 1870 the very few 1813 EK2 recipients would right away get a 1870 EK1... as there were more 1870 vets in 1914, than 1813 vets in 1870, the proplem must have first become apparent after the outbreak of the war...

Garuda made propellers for the German Aircraft, plane seems to have crashed in Schwerin?

From a plane that crashed in 1918

Do we have a catchy term for crosses made between the wars? Something better than "A cross made between the wars" or a "Between war cross?" How about a "Tweenie" ? ;-) Anyone know who this maker was?

of course.... the flip side of the coin... other than being an extra step for an 1870 EK2 vet before getting his 1914 EK1... it also meant a 1870 EK1 recipient was able to get a little goodie as well when he recieved the clasp. Von Eichhorn in the 1st pic is a definate 1870 EK2 and 1914 EK1 guy.

A photo from Glenn... i wonde what order Egon von Gayl got them? Did he have an 1870 EK1?

Hi Dave, That is perfect, that is what i thought. Nimmergut writes "Offen bleibt die Frage, was im Wiederholungsfall bis 1915 verliehen wurde? Ein zweites Kreuz der 2. Klasse oder der 1. Klasse, da die zweite ja schon vorhanden war?" I think this more or less nails it. If you were lucky enough to get an 2nd EK award before June 1916 you got an EK1, and if you were not, you had to get a clasp first. A bit like airlines raising the bar on frequent flyer miles ;-)

Hi, Online we read "Domed cross" "Convex cross""stamped letters" "incused letters" "Raised letters" etc. etc... personally I jump between all possibilities... but my new years resolution is to finally make my choices.... So... from now on I shall use "Incused lettering/Numbers" "Raised lettering/Numbers" "Convex" "Flat" .... what terms do you like best.

Then technically possible he got the Spange late 1915 and EK1 afterwards? As i said, maybe being an enemy of Wilhelm II played a role?

Or maybe the Arctic guys could have gotten the Atlantic star with less time required than it usually needed?

Hi, You had mentioned him, I will get on to him. I think it probable that many were indeed old officers back in Germany... but there is of course the possibility of officers who were in Germany before the introduction of the clasp, with a 1870 EK2, who were in Stabs positions, or back in the Wehrbezirk who recieved no 1914 EK, but after the introduction of the clasp joined a staff in France, belgium or wherever, and then got the clasp. of course... it is easy to imagine conversation in the mess. "Well, last week I got an EK1, but your award cam after the introduction of the clasp yeaterday... so you just get a clasp..." Does anyone know when the Grand duke mobilised for the war? He was veery young in 1870... did he get an EK1 then or just an EK2? Maybe it was political ... Wilhelm must have hated him... maybe for that reason he got the EK so late he got the spange instead of an early EK1? Dont forget, he was not a Wilhelm fan, and already in 1916 openly said that under Wilhelm II the war would be lost and the german Monarchy destroyed....

Hi Sascha... I refer to English language forum talk, as opposed to articles. But I am more on about the technical possibilities, as opposed to how it really happened. According to Nimmergut the period before the introduction is not clear. After the clasp was introduced, the jump 1870 EK2 to 1914EK1 would have been impossible for anyone, whether at the home front or the Real front. Only the fact that "Higher ups" usually got the EK1 early, made them miss out on a spange. My only Spange doc is to a Lagerarbeiter in Berlin ;-)

Hi, as IrishG says, he seems not to have been snubbed, it was his choice... "and, in protest at this establishment snub to his men, Harris refused a peerage, the sole commander-in-chief not made a peer in 1946" Then he threw his teddy in the corner and moved to South Africa... But once again.... why SHOULD bomber command have an Own medal? Can the Infantry insist on one as well? Bomb disposal guys could argue for one as well!! You needed more balls than I will ever have to roll out in a Sherman to face Tiger tanks... a bit like bringing a knife to a gun fight... so special medal for the Tankers as well!

"Ferry House in Goring-on-Thames, located directly adjacent to the River Thames." So he was the Göring on Thames of England?? ;-)

P.P.S. I am working on a "Thing" about the 1870 clasp... if anyone has any examples to share, photos of wearers, documentation etc,. etc... please drop me a PM. Thanks Chris

He has the EK2 1870, the 25 year oakleaves.... and a 1914 EK1..... ergo a jump from EK2 in 1870 to automatic EK1 in 1914? Anyone have any thoughts?

We often read that the clasp would have maily been on the bars of really higher ranking officers... here is my thought of the day.... As the clasp was introduced in June 1915.... I am betting it is very probably that really higher ranking officers mostly did NOT get it... here is why.... a young Leutnant of 1870 who got the EK2 , and was a general or Colonel in 1914... would probably have had his 1914 EK1 by June 1915.... so there would be no way to retroactively award him a bar.... here is an example....

Hi, Fantastic bar!! Another possibility would be a black ribboned EK for service on the home front. best Chris

There was a thread on a guy some time ago... served amyn years before WW1 and retired... I will see if I can find it... Best Chris

How very, very, very frustrating :-( By chance I managed to get the Regt History..... absolutely no mention of a Regt Sturm Abteilung.... and No Mention of Leutnant Wagner. Really strange .......