El Ninja

Ah, so, no definitive answer, no concrete proof, no way to properly disclaim that this is in fact what it is, Yugoslavian prototype. Not to mention not having the resources for proper research, or having lack of knowledge of the other prototypes. And then casting the ball to me, to find the photo of an empty box. Quite nice. No, prove me and any other author worth its salt wrong. Prove the man who actually took those orders from IKOM wrong. Find the data, from the beginning, this is where I will give a hint, which is in Jajce, in november 1943. Secondly, who was the first producer of the said order? Thirdly, could the accepted model be a second prototype variant, presented upon the committee which then chose the better looking one? I wish you good fortune in the arduous labor to come.

I am going against my own word, but yolo. If the box does not fit the order, than please explain why it is cut to fit this order specifically. Sorry for the photo quality, but it is best I can make it without a scanner. And would you please be so kind as to explain the elephant in the room, which everyone seems to have forgotten about, why are there three classes of the said order?

I will not keep beating a dead horse. As far as I am concerned, case closed. Amount of evidence far outweighs any speculation.

Wrong again, what about the Order of the peoples army? No less than three rejected prototypes, without any similarity between the first and the second. And again, order for military merit, awarded, then completely redesigned and taken back from the decorated persons and exchanged for the new type. Order of the war banner? Same, no similarities between prototype and the order. That makes four identical cases already. Far from being unique. When I said that it could be rejected because Tito did not like it, I was being satyrical. Implying that it could be any and all reasons for the change.

What was the reason to completely change the design of the Order for military merit, which was already awarded in not insignificant quantity? Order of brotherhood and unity, Partisan memorial etc.? All major changes, in some cases without any similarities between the two. I can think of quite a number of reasons. One of them could even be that the Tito did not like it enough. It would not be anything out of the ordinary to completely change the design, especially of a prototype. Who knows how many prototypes were scrapped without any of us ever being aware that they existed?

My point. Documents could have been printed after the fact, date is not the date of issue of this exact document, but the date of the issuance of the decree. Besides, in Yugoslavian faleristics number of order had some weight only in the beginning. Later it was abandoned, for various reasons, braging rights being one of them, as was ranking of the orders at a later date. Awarding process merits its own line of research, but that is another subject. More evidence points toward this being Yugoslavian order than anything else. The figure itself could be a reason for change, as it was for the Order of labour. As well as there not being enough symbolism in the overall design.

And again we return to the topic of archives. Which were destroyed in the '90s, when IKOM was privatised and split up... Some timeline can be established, though. Albanian decorations were founded by law in July 1945, Yugoslavian OMP in June of the same year. Awarding of the OMP, judging by the documents in collections, began in June 1945. Now, document with that date does not have to mean that the orders themselves were produced. It could have been made and handed much later. Which only adds more confusion. And there are not much precisely dated photos of orders in wear. More likely, actual awarding began in later half of '45. But, there are the boxes. Same man that I got the information on archives, said that there were two sets of these orders found in IKOM. One was sold in Russia, other one in Serbia. Russian set is the one that was published by Danilov. Both sets were in identical boxes. That should be proof enough. This rant is already long enough, but there is one more point. Albania and Yugoslavia broke relations in 1948. More likely than not, anything that had connection with Albania was destroyed after that. As was the case with awarded decorations, both of Albania and SSSR. In about 20+ years of collecting, I have seen only one Soviet medal awarded and kept by a Yugoslav.

Similarities between Albanian and Yugoslavian orders and medals are no wonder. Designers were the same: Augustinčić and Kun. There are similarities between partisan memorials, orders of the Partisan star and so on. All of this is already discussed and published. As for the figure of the fighter on the prototype order, to me it looks a lot more like a Spanish republican fighter than Albanian.

Greetings. I am being offered this flagpole finial, as I do not have any idea about value of such items, I would appreciate any opinions. Just to have a reference in a bargain. It is beat up and bent, quite heavy peace, looks to be a chrome plated brass.

I will not waste my time any longer, think what you will.

Nope, medal in question was original and boxed. That is the way it was officially done. Sadly, i no longer have the photos. And the collector who has it does not have much of online presence. As much as it is hard to accept, sometimes, things are simply done.

No one mentioned it officialy, but i saw it myself. If you would take my word for what it's worth. There was no change in the design, wire was simply wrapped around the catch. Some were later removed, but there are holes in the base where the wire was pulled through. The base is cardboard, with two blocks of raw cut wood to raise it in the box.

It is simpler than that, early medals were issued as a medal, but, due to its similarity with orders it was renamed and issued as a plaque (table medal). The medal itself was bound in the box, so that it can not be taken out. They were literally bound to the base by two pieces of copper wire and two aluminum plates.

Nice piece. One of the earlier issue.

In the beginning different classes of orders had differently colored boxes. If i remember correctly, same colors were used for the Order of labor, red for I class, green for the II and blue for the III. Later it was all mixed up and equalized. That is consistent. As for the articles, most of it is speculation when it comes to these prototype orders. And even someone as knowledgeable as Bjeloš can make mistakes when dealing with the unknown.

All this conundrum could have been avoided if somebody cared to just pick up at least some of the archive. That theory does hold some merit, but why would there be boxes for the given orders with Yugoslavian writing all over it? There are some better candidates for what could be Albanian rejected prototype decorations. By that I mean at what is speculated to be prototypes of the Order of national army and/or War banner.

As far as the timeline is concerned, that is enough time to produce any order or medal, especially one with such simple design. Now, for the documents. It does not have to mean that if document was issued on a certain date, that order was also given at the same time. During the war, more often than not, person being awarded would receive only a document, and the order or medal would have been issued at a later date. One case in point: National hero Stojan Grujičić Jaruga was awarded the Order of the national hero in september 1944, at the same ceremony, Mikan Marjanović was also decorated, but he was handed only a document.

Which photos? If you are referring to the photos of award ceremonies, those bear the wathermark MIJ Muzej istorije Jugoslavije - Museum of history of Yugoslavia.

It is also found on Partisan memorial (Spomenica 1941).

As I said, if you need help with translation, feel free to contact me.

https://www.slvesnik.com.mk/besplaten-pristap-do-izdanija.nspx Most of the laws, dates and issues are listed above. https://znaci.org/zb/4_2_1.htm Newsletters of Supreme headquarters.

I have hard copies, but most of it is available online. I wil post a link.

Then, various laws, listed in more or less chronological order: 1. Decree on decorations in struggle for national liberation, 15.8.1943. Newsletter of supreme headquarters no. 29-31 june, july, august 1943. 2. Instructions on the proposal and awarding of the orders, J.B. Tito, 14. october 1944 3. Law on the orders and medals, 12. june 1945. Official gazette of DFJ no. 40/45 4. Law on the establishment of the order of labour, 1. may 1945. Official gazette of DFJ no. 28/45 5. Statutes of the orders and medals, 3. september 1946. Official gazette of FNRJ no. 71/46 6.Law on confirmation and changes of the law on orders and medals, 1. November 1946. Official gazette of FNRJ no. 88/46 7. Law on decorations, 14. December 1955. Official gazette of FNRJ no. 55/55 8. Statutes of the orders and medals of FNRJ, 13. november 1957. Official gazette of FNRJ no. 47/57 9. Law on changes and supplements of the law on orders and medals, 15. march 1961. Official gazette of FNRJ no. 10/61 10. Law on changes and supplements to the law on orders and medals, 15. april 1964. official gazette of SFRJ no. 16/64 11. Law on decorations of the SFRJ, july 1973. Official gazette of SFRJ no. 40/73 12. Statutes of the orders and medals of SFRJ, 28. december 1973 Official gazette of SFRJ no. 71/73 13. Law on changes and supplements to the law on orders and medals 1976 Official gazette of SFRJ no. 58/76 14. Law on changes an supplements to the law on decorations, 14. may 1985. Official gazette of SFRJ no. 25/85 15. Law on decorations of the SFRJ 24. october 1986 Official gazette of SFRJ no. 10/86 If I missed something, please fill in the gaps.

A theme where we can list and/or upload literature and sources pertaining to decorations of socialist Yugoslavia. I will start with what I have or know of. Also, due to the language barrier, I will try to translate some of the more important stuff. 1. Odlikovanja SFRJ, Milorad Erceg, Belgrade, 1978 2. Odlikovanja SFRJ, Stojan Rudež, Belgrade, 1987 3. Odlikovanja zbirke dr. Veljka Malinara III, Boris Prister, Zagreb, 2000 4. Odlikovanja, Boris Prister, Zagreb, 1984 5. Variants of the order and medal of merit to the people, Yuri A. Danilov, Moscow, 2008 6. Orders and medals of communist Yugoslavia, Alexander Velichko, Minsk, 2007

We went way off topic here. Before we incur the wrath of admin, may I suggest that we open a new theme where we can list all the literature and sources for Yugo socialist awards?