David B 1812

Here are TWO "Ghost Date" Queen's South Africa medals; #4 - To: 8206 Pte J. Johnston, 1: Highland Light Infantry Missing Clasps: Wittebergen; Cape Colony; S.A.01 #5 - To: 133 Tpr. F.G. Hollington, 2: Victoria Mounted Rifles Missing Clasps: Cape Colony; Rhodesia; S.A.01 Notes: Both medals confirmed on the Rolls, for the missing clasps. Both medals acquired 'as is' - with missing clasps Just for Member's interest, I have added a "period" postcard showing troopers of the Victoria Mounted Rifles in the field. The printed caption states: "Boer War. - Victorian (sic) Mounted Rifles (Bereden Infanterie.)" Postcard printed by Picture Postcard Co.Ltd., 6 Drapers Gardens, London, E.C. (2). (I bought this postcard from an auction in the U.K.) NOW: We can pretty much assume one of two possibilities for both these medals: (a) That they HAD the Clasps fitted, at one point, but for whatever reason, they were removed, or (b) the medals and the clasps were issued in the normal way, and, again, for whatever reason, the clasps were NOT attached, and later were 'lost' by the recipient - i.e. never attached. And, HERE is the QUESTION: What is the VIEW of GMIC Members? > There are those collectors who hold the view, that, as this is the state in which the medals were acquired into my collection, they should be left as such. OR, > There are others who might be of the view, that if the correct missing clasps can be found, that they should then be added, to complete the medals, as they should be. What are the general views of Members on this question?

Thank you, all, including Chris B, muckaroon 1960 and Bilco, for your further comments. I think that we are pretty much agreed. MOST U.S. medals are NOT named. The higher U.S. Orders and Decorations (including the Purple Heart) MAY be found officially, but not always, named. I will leave it there. All the best. David B ==================================

Thanks, Brett. If you ever manage to track any down, please may I buy a six inch length from you? Thank you, All the best, David B ==========================

I have also not see one like this before. It would appear to be (and, possibly confirmed by the date: 1900) - some sort of lapel badge, with a rather poor portrait of the Zuid Afrikaanse Republik (Z.A.R.) President, Paul Kruger. (The Z.A.R. later, of course became the Transvaal.) It shows the Z.A.R. Flag in the correct colours - green, red, white and blue. Also, the eagle with spread wings appears on the Z.A.R. Arms. I have a VERY detailed, 240 page, well illustrated book - Boer War Memorabilia by Peter Ooshuizen and this badge does not appear in it. But of course, that does not mean anything. I am not an expert on such things, but this is almost certainly a lapel badge of President Paul Kruger, Z.A.R. President, 1900. If the price is right, maybe you should buy it. There cannot be many around, I would say. All the best, David B. Durban, South Africa ===========================================================

Thank you, all, for these additional comments. We can safely say that there are of course many more than just "three' of these scarce S.A.A.F. badges around. THAT claim (of just three) came from a Internet Seller, where I saw the claim. I do not make it. However, from what we have seen above, it is most certainly a badge which one does not see every day. And, I would guess when it was used, prior to WWII, the S.A.A.F. could not have had THAT many Navigator/Air Gunners around. Obviously we will never know, exactly, how many there are. I am just happy that I have one !!!! All the best, David B ===========================================

I will try to do so when I have some spare time. David B ==========================================

I have an original, posed, portrait photograph of a 4 year old child (Miss Irene Bulleier) taken in June 1901 in Ladysmith by a local professional photographer at the time, Henry Kisch. Unfortunately the siege was over (3.11.1899 - 28.2.1900) by that time. It is the mother of F/Sgt Eric Williamson, S.A.A.F. - who medals are illustrated in my "Album" elsewhere on this site. It is certainly possible that she was resident in Ladysmith during the siege, but I have no confirmation of that. I have another, of Williamson's Grandmother (Lady Bulleier) and his mother, Irene, as a baby taken in 1897, and yet another of Williamson's mother and father, on their wedding day, 1920. When I got Williamson's medals, from a family member of his, apart from his medals, where a wealth of personal photos; photos of the War from Somalia, north Africa and Italy. Also personal papers, cards, stamps and war paper currency he had from various countries, including military currency, AND most valuable of all, a 1944 Golden Silkworm - named, but not to Williamson. An amazing lot of stuff. With all this, I did a three page write-up on Williamson. But the whole collection - in an A4 "flip-file" takes up 46 pages........

Sorry.................. I am still working out how to post the photo !!!!!!!!! ?????????

Thank you Rogi, Paul R and Ferdinand for your information, which I sincerely appreciate very much. And any help with a translation of the marks in Cyrillic on the reverse of the Stars, please?. Paul, you asked for photos. I do not have them as individual photos, but along with a group of other "enamelled" medals I have. Since I took the photo of this group, I have two further 'enamel' orders/decorations, which are not in the photo. They are: The National Order of Merit (France) and the Order Polonia Restituta (both Knight Class). But thanks ALL for your interest and information. Much appreciated. All the best, David B. ----------------------

I have an extensive collection of military medals, but mainly of British medals, and, specialising in the India IGS series, and the Army GSM series.......... However, I DO have a fair selection of general medals, from a number of countries, including a small USSR collection of just eleven medals. Using the "Pinned" Number Series posted elsewhere on this site, I have been able to put ISSUE DATES (if I read the posting correctly) to the under-mentioned medals. ORDER of the RED STAR. Serial Number: 3508944 - issued December 1956 and, ORDER of the PATRIOTIC WAR (2nd Class): Serial Number: 447351 - issued May 1945 Both are of the "screwback" type, with the maker's mark, which, whilst this is obviously in Cyrillic on the reverse, the approximate version, as far as I can do it in English, reads: MOHETHbIN and ABOP or something similar................. the same of both Stars. Of course, I am aware of the various conditions of issue of these medals, but I have a question or two, please. In the traditional British style, are these Stars classed as Orders, Decorations, or as Service, or Campaign "medals" (even though they are, obviously, Stars). And I know that the very title of the Star has the word "Order" - BUT is this to be taken in the same context as, say, a British 'Order' - where it ranks amongst the HIGHEST awards made by a country? Is there an 'order of precedence' for USSR medals, and where do these Stars rank? Apart from establishing the issue period, as above, can anything else be told from the serial numbers engraved on the reverse? Do they relate, for example, to a register of numbers, from which the recipient name can be found? I realise that millions of these Stars were issued, especially the Red Star, but what else can the number tell us, if anything? Any finally, I assume that these Stars are no longer issued in this form? When were they last issued? Thank you for any help you can give me, David B ==================================================================

Thank you guys. I think that we are finished with this subject now. The purpose of raising it in the first instance, was to check some lines of a section, containing eight paragraphs, of a book I am writing, and I merely wanted to check that my comments made on the medals issued by the U.S.A. were correct. What I originally wrote was (and these are just partial extracts from the overall section): The Naming of Military Medals and Medal Research .................... .................... .............. "The medals of the U.S.A., Russia, Germany and indeed, most European and other medal issuing countries are most commonly found unnamed." .......................... (and, later........................) "The most glaring omission of naming is that the campaign service medals issued to British servicemen for WWII are NOT named, whilst those issued for WWII to most Commonwealth Countries were named. Of course, the millions of unnamed WWII service and campaign medals thus issued to British servicemen presents severe problems for medal collectors, as do the unnamed medals to men from the U.S.A., Germany, Russia, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and so on." ...................................... ...................................... These are, as I have said merely small extracts from this section. HOWEVER. in view of our discussion, above, I will now make mention of the fact that some U.S.A. Decorations, including the MOH and the PH may be found named, and that the more commonly issued campaign and service medals are not. I will still firm up the final wording. Of course, as I have said, the above sentences are just small extracts from the section. I also cover numbered medals, private naming, medals issued with certificates, and many other aspects which fall under this section sub-heading. But all I was really trying to do, was to firm up my comments of the U.S.A. aspect of naming. So, thank you, guys, for your assistance. I think, unless there are some further useful, pertinent comments, we are now complete with this. Thank you, ATB, David B ===============================================================

Hmmmm...... I see that the "link" is not allowed by this system to be typed in the complete form: So let me try to type it, without it showing up as a 'hyperlink' - I will leave the http and the : and the // and www OFF the address. So here is the address AFTER www part: .apd.army.mil/jw2/xmldemo/r600_8_22/main.asp Try that. ATB David B =========================================================

Thank you, Doc, for your additional useful comments. I have re-checked the link and it is correct as: http://www.apd.army.mil/jw2/xmldemo/r600_8_22/main.asp If it does not work as a link, try typing it in, as above. Between the numbers 600 and 8 and 22 is the symbol "underscore" - i.e. "_" and not a dash: i.e. "-". All the best, David B =========================================================

After a thorough internet search I have found the OFFICIAL U.S. MILITARY AWARDS Regulations : Army Regulation 600-8-22 and dated: 24 June 2013. It may be found HERE: http://www.apd.army.mil/jw2/xmldemo/r600_8-22/main.asp These regulations state further: 1-33. Engraving of Awards. The grade, name, and organisation of the awardee are engraved on the reverse of the Medal of Honor. The name only of the awardee is engraved on the reverse of every other decoration, the Prisoner of War Medal and the Good Conduct Medal. Normally, engraving will be accomplished prior to presentation. The Regulation goes on to say that if not engraved upon receipt, the awardee may mail the decoration back to a particular Army Department for later engraving. NOW: These are 2013 regulations. We STILL do not know what the policy (if different) was in earlier times. ie: WWI; WWII; Korea and Vietnam, for example. Furthermore, the 2013 policy SPECIFICALLY refers to the engraving (and naming) of the M.O.H. and OTHER DECORATIONS. The Regulations define DECORATIONS as: (1) The Medal of Honor; (2) Distinguished Service Cross; (3) Distinguished Service Medal; (4) Silver Star; (5) Legion of Merit; (6) Distinguished Flying Cross; (7) Soldier's Medal; (8) Bronze Star; (9) Meritorious Service Medal; (10) Air Medal; (11) Army Commendation Medal; and, (12) Army Achievement Medal. AND, for purposes of ENGRAVING, as stated earlier, this list will include, also: The Prisoner of War Medal and The Good Conduct Medal. The Regulations are SILENT on the engraving of ALL other Medals - i.e.: Campaign, Service and other medals INCLUDING the PURPLE HEART. Therefore, one must assume that any modern issue engraved Purple Heart was so engraved OUTSIDE the bounds of Regulation 600-8-22. I read this to mean that although an individual OR his unit / regiment MAY have engraved a Purple Heart, it is not done OFFICIALLY under the Regulations. This may also explain why there are so many different forms of Purple Heart naming and engraving styles to be seen out there. The Regulations cover the Purple Heart under Reg. 2-8. The regulation is silent on any form of official engraving. And therefore it would seem, unless anyone can show me some OFFICIAL U.S. Army / U.S. Defence Regulation/s that the ENGRAVING or NAMING of U.S. Medals, other than those shown above, IS OFFICIAL U.S. Policy, then we must presume that all other naming shown on ANY OTHER medals, are UNOFFICIAL. (The exception to this, of course is the medals issued in the earlier wars or times described above, and for which I, as yet, have found no official answer or explanation). Certificates: There are very long sections within these Regulations which cover the award of certificates which are awarded to recipients of various decorations, medals, clasps, badges and various other sundry insignia and regalia. It seems that certificates are awarded for everything except your tunic buttons !!!!!!

Very nice Brett. By comparison, the 21mm medal must look miniscule to the big 51mm version. I don't know if it is just your photo, or do you not have the correct ribbon - i.e. with a central claret stripe? My 29mm one also does not have the correct ribbon. Mine has a sort of maroon coloured one. I wonder where we can get the correct ribbon - IF it is available? ATB David B

Yes, the one Kaplan is selling is the (middle) 29mm one - estimate R1,200 !!!!???? As I said, my 29mm example, in 2010, cost only R269. My 2013 MYB gives the value as £85 - £100 so maybe Kaplan's price is even cheap? We shall see. But as I have one, I'm not bidding, anyway. I must say that I am also in awe of some of the information one gets on this Forum. The Durban Recruiting Committee info is VERY interesting, and very valuable. At least I now know what I thought was just another "commemorative" or 'unofficial" medallion is MUCH more than that. Sadly, although I have one - with the original violet ribbon - I do not have a certificate. Pity. But good, very useful reference info, anyway. Thank you "sabrigade". ATB David B

Thanks, Brett. D.

Sorry, I have noticed an error in the DATES of Service I originally posted above, as follows: The dates for the MADAGASCAR Campaign, should of course read: 7 November 1942 to 22 July 1943 (and not 1942 as stated above) Sorry for the error. David B.

Just seen your additional info today, Eddie - thank you very much !!!! David B ===============

Brett - has the web address changed - it now comes up as "Lady Smith Beauty and Therapy" ...............???? Thanks, D.

I too have one of these "Durban Recruiting Committee" Medals - with the original violet ribbon. I have had it for many years. I see that Kaplan has one up in his latest (July 2014) auction. The price estimate is R500 - which surprises me. I would have thought much less for what is, after all not really an "Official War Medal" ? Any thoughts? But medal prices seem to be rocketing. I bought a silver Natal Coronation Medal (29mm) EVIIR on auction in 2010 for R269. I see that again, in Kaplan's current auction, there is one for an estimate of R1,200. Amazing........

Very interesting, if it is an original. I have not seen one like it before. I have something similar (see my "Photo Document" gallery on this site) relating to the Great War, where events and leading military personalities of the day are illustrated, in colour, with a panel in the centre, where a soldier could add his own, 'personalised' photograph.

I do not specialize in U.S.A. Military Medals. I have 41 U.S. medals which represents just about 5% of my collection. Not ONE of these medals is named. I always believed that the naming of U.S. medals, on issue, is NOT standard. Am I correct. I have read elsewhere that some U.S. medals ARE named. But is this STANDARD procedure? For example, MOST British campaign medals ARE named, BEFORE issue. Certainly British 1914-1918 medals ARE officially named. The only general exception to British naming, is that their WWII medals are NOT named. South African medals for 1914-1918 and 1939-1945 are ALL named. South African medals in the modern area are generally not named but some are numbered, as are some, but not all Soviet medals. Some US medals - like the WWII Campaign medals have very thin rims, as compared with British medals, that it would seem to me that naming is. or would be quite difficult. However, I have seen a collection of Purple Hearts where MANY of them are named - but NOT in uniform style - possibly indicating private naming - just as some (but certainly not all) Brits had their WWII medals "privately" named. It would also appear to me that virtually NO European countries named their medals. Again, none of the German, Italian, Greek, Netherlands, Belgium or Polish medals I have in my collection are named. So, can someone please tell me what the naming policy (OFFICIALLY) for U.S. medals is please. If this policy has changed over the years, i.e. from WWI to WWII to Korea, to Vietnam to modern issues, how, and when did it change? I would appreciate your advice and input on this question. Thank you, David BENNETT Durban -------------------------------------------------------

I have a 1939 - 1945 medal group to: 133828V Spr. Edmund Henry RUSSELL, B.E.M. (28th and 31st Road Construction Coy), S.A.E.C. He was an uncle of mine. A photograph of his group is posted on this website, under Member's Collections. I have Spr. Russell's WWII personal military files, from the S.A. Defence records section. I have analysed these files, and AS FAR AS I CAN interpret the records, it appears that Spr. Russell joined the SAEC on 15.05.1940 (28th RdCC). He was posted to East Africa (the Abyssinia Campaign, 1940-41) on 21 July 1940 with the 28th. He left East Africa, still with the 28th, arriving in Durban, on 23 December 1941. He remained (apparently) in South Africa, until 7 November, 1942, when he left for Madagascar, to join the Campaign there. Leaving Madagascar, Spr. Russell returned to South Africa, arriving in Cape Town, on 22 July 1943. Again, remaining apparently in South Africa until January 1944, Spr. Russell was again on the move, when, on 30 January 1944, he left for the Italian Campaign, sailing via Suez, arriving in Italy on 24 February 1944, but now with the 31st Rd CC. Whilst with the 31st, at MONTE CASSINO, Spr. Russell was W.I.A. on 20 May 1944. He had volunteered to use his bulldozer to locate a German minefield, during the construction of the Pignatora lateral, near the Rapido River, immediately behind the Canadian advance. After Spr. Russell successfully located the minefield, one of the mine-lifting party set off a mine, killing three members of the party, and wounding Spr. Russell in the head, and bursting an eardrum. He was hospitalised twice in Italy after this event. He was awarded the B.E.M. on 19 April 1945. With his Italian Campaign over, Spr. Russell was returned to South Africa, leaving Italy on 22 July 1945, arriving in South Africa, on 24 July 1945. He was demobilised on 17 September 1945. And so, in SUMMARY, we have THESE DATES: Kenya / Abyssinia: 21 July 1940 - 23 December 1941 Madagascar Campaign: 7 November 1942 - 22 July 1942 Italian Campaign (via Egypt) 30 January 1944 - 24 August 1945 Spr. Russell's B.E.M. is CONFIRMED by LG 37039 (19.04.1945) at pg. 2072. The dates above are from his Military record files. He has a 193 word Citation on the Award Recommendation form - Army Form W3121. I believe all the above to be true and correct. NOW FOR THE ANOMALY - or, actually, TWO anomalies: ONE: Spr. Russell received, and his files confirm, The 1939/45 Star; The Africa Star; The Italy Star; The 1939-45 War Medal and the Africa Service Medal. And, of course the B.E.M. BUT HE DID NOT RECEIVE the 1939-45 DEFENCE MEDAL. QUESTION: Is this omission correct? TWO: And here is the REAL ANOMALY: In the book "Salute to the Sappers" by Orpen and Martin, Vol. 2 and on page 2, (writing about the 2nd Battle of El Alamein - which was from 23 October 1942 to 11 November 1942) it is stated: On 6th November, 1942, "Spr. E.H. Russell who was later awarded the BEM, was clearing the railway of mines, as the Railway Construction and Maintenance Group, commanded by Maj. W.H. Evans since the of September, pushed rapidly ahead with restoration of the track." (Note this was between Tell el Eisa and El Daba - in turn between Matruh and El Alamein). There is NO question that Spr. Russell was the ONLY Russell to be awarded a BEM to the SAEC in 1939-1945 - See Orpen-Martin, Vol 1 Appendix 3, pg. 393. There was one other Russell, a Lt. P.W.R. Russell, who got an MBE. So no confusion. SO NOW noting Russell's various DATES of SERVICE, above (and extracted from his SADF files) HOW could Orpen and Martin put him at the 2nd Battle of El Alamein, on 6 November 1942, when, according to his files, he was, at that time, in South Africa, just about to leave for Madagascar? Any thoughts, Members? It is a strange and interesting anomaly, I feel. Obviously one can argue that the authors of the book are incorrect. Or that Spr. Russell's files are incorrect / incomplete............... WHICH IS IT? Is it possible that he WAS there, but that it is omitted from his file? Unlikely, but possible, I suppose??? An interesting problem / puzzle for you ENGINEER experts to get your teeth into............ Best wishes, David R. BENNETT Durban ===================================================